On Free Will

My last post generated some very interesting points, questions, and observations from the comment section.  The purpose of that post was not to prove or give a detailed argument for the free-will or libertarian perspective.  Rather, it was to point out the cognitive dissonance that seems to flow (along with other negative results) from the determinist position.  In response, rather than address that point, most wanted to counter or respond with, “But what about the problems with the libertarian perspective?”  Well, I never said there wasn’t any.  It might do people well to at least focus on what their own views entail, whether positive or negative, before they are too quick to worry about the “other” guy’s views.  The rush to “But, what about ‘your’ views…” becomes an easy way out—a way to always avoid any reflection or introspection regarding one’s own views and it does nothing to address the problems raised in the first place with one’s own views—it is diversionary.
Putting that aside, I have done some more thinking about the matter of “free-will”.  One thing I realized is that there is a theological conversation about free-will and a secular philosophical discussion, and at times they intersect and other times not.  And of course, this conversation goes back centuries.  It is not going to be settled here, that is for sure.
As to the philosophical conversation, I will note shortly several sources that attempt to address the issues raised by Bernard and JP as to the “randomness” or “luck” problem.  I doubt these papers will change any minds here, but along with the many other resources and people I noted previously, these sources also tell us the suggestion that libertarians ignore or do not address this “problem” is just false.  And if none of these attempts to address these issues can suffice in any fashion or fail to satisfy the determinist’s questions or points, there is not much I can do about that.  Anyway, a simple Google search will remove any imagined idea these issues are ignored or left unaddressed by libertarians.
The randomness problem is stated by JP thus:
“The question is rather: why would P choose differently in worlds A and B?
The worlds are absolutely identical and, in particular, P is exactly the same in both worlds, in beliefs, desires, mindset, anything you can imagine. Please note that I’m not assuming anything about physics and determinism.
Therefore the difference in choice cannot be explained by anything in the world or anything that is part of P’s nature. Because, obviously, any explanation valid in world A would also, by necessity, be valid in world B.
One possibility is that some random event occurs – an event occurring without a cause and for which there is no reason. What else is there?
You say “P just chooses differently”. But what does that mean? It’s a choice that is based on nothing at all, a choice without any reason or cause. How is that different from a random choice?”
The assumption seems to be that if the prior criteria are identical leading up to a choice or act for two people, then these two must choose or act the same.  Otherwise, why the difference?  Why doesn’t identical prior sequence equal same outcome?  Why doesn’t cause and effect lead to the same choice or action (omission) each time?  Well, my first thought is because we are not machines.  Prior identical beliefs (or name any identical category) for two humans does not mean they will both make the same choice or decision every single time.  Why would it unless we already assumed determinism?  It begs the very question of whether or not we can do otherwise regardless what any prior category/chain of events is present or not.  Notice that JP tells us he is assuming nothing about determinism or physics but then proceeds to set up his identical worlds based entirely upon the premise that everything “before” “leading up to” “prior” “in the past” is identical.  Well, why would that even be important unless one already thought that everything prior must determine that which follows?  Isn’t that determinism?
O’Connor addresses the issue here:
“The ‘luck’ objection invites us to contemplate, not intra-world identical undetermined choice situations obtained via rollback (a metaphysically dubious notion, it should be said), but inter-world cases. We imagine Alice and a counterpart Alicia in an identical world up to the moment of choice, such that Alice tells the truth and Alicia lies, and again we tell the story in a manner consistent with the agent causal story. If the bravely truth-telling Alice is commended, and the deceiving Alicia goes on to be exposed and suffers a negative consequence, isn’t Alice just lucky? After all, there was nothing whatsoever about her right up to the moment of the choice that distinguished here from Alicia, and so nothing about her that made the difference. Each had the same propensity to lie and to tell the truth. The conclusion drawn is that neither agent controlled the way their respective cases unfolded in such a way that it was up to her that she told the truth (lied). (For a statement of this argument, see Haji 2004.)
The agent causationist contends that both these objections fail to take seriously the concept of agent causation [which is to beg the question–to assume determinism]. It is conceived as a primitive form of control over just such undetermined, single-case outcomes. The agent’s control is exercised not through the efficacy of prior states of the agent (as on causal theories of action), but in the action itself. Alice’s causing her intention to tell the truth is itself an exercise of control. And since, ex hypothesi, it is quite literally the agent herself generating the outcome, it is hard to see how the posited form of control could possibly be improved upon.   So wherein lies the luck? (For such a response, see Pereboom 2005, Clarke 2005, and O’Connor 2007)”
And we also see the supposed problem addressed here:
“(1) Suppose that at time t, an agent S makes a (directly) free decision to A.
(2)   If an agent S freely decides at time t to A, he could have freely performed some                        alternative act at t.
(3)   Hence, S could have freely performed some alternative act at t. (By 1 and 2)
(4)   If S could have freely performed some alternative act at t, then there is a possible                       world W which shares its laws of nature and its past up until (and not including) t with                        the real world, in which S freely acts otherwise at t. 
(5)   There is a possible world W which shares its laws of nature and its past up until (and not including) t with the real world, in which S freely acts otherwise at t. (By 3, 4)
(6)  The difference in S’s behavior at t between the two worlds – that in the real world, S          decides at t to A, whereas in W, S acts otherwise at t – cannot be explained in terms of what happens in those worlds before t.
Mele calls this difference between the actual world and W, “the cross-world difference                between the two worlds with regard to how S acts at t”. (Ibid: 54)
(7)   If the cross-world difference between W and the actual world with regard to how                        S acts at t cannot be explained in terms of what happens in both these worlds before t, then that difference is just a matter of luck.
(8)   The cross-world difference between W and the actual world with regard to the         decision S makes at t is just a matter of luck. (By 6, 7)
(9)   Luck entails lack of control.
(10)   S lacks control over the decision he makes at t in W, which means that in W, he does not act freely at t.
(11)   S could not have freely performed some alternative act at t. (By 4,10)
(12)   But the conjunction of (1) and (11) contradicts (2). Since we obtained a result that contradicts LF’, the conclusion we are expected to draw from it is that LF’ needs to be rejected.12/13”
What is the response?
“However, an L-libertarian would object to this way of completing the argument against his position. He would point out that the joint assumption of (7) and (9) commits one to assuming a conceptual link between lack of explanation and lack of control; and as Mele offers no argument for this assumption, the L-libertarian would argue that he has no good reason to accept it.  Furthermore, there seem to be counterexamples to it. Consider a situation in which S is torn between his desire to steal an expensive necklace he sees in a jewelry store, and his desire, for moral reasons, to refrain from stealing it. Ultimately, S decides to steal the necklace, and steals it. Assume further that it was within S’s power, in the L-libertarian sense, to refrain from the decision he made, that is, that there is a possible world W, indistinguishable from the actual world up until t, in which S decides not to steal the necklace at t. In this situation, there is a cross-world difference that lacks an explanation. And yet, intuitively it is not the case that S was lacking control over the decision he made. After all, the decision did not seem to him as something that occurred to him out of the blue. Rather, he experienced the decision as something he made, something he made deliberately, and made in the belief that it was within his power to decide otherwise. Mele, the L-libertarian might claim, has not given him a good reason to think that belief is false.”
What both papers are asserting is that lack of explanation doesn’t equate to lack of control.  Additionally, what each tells us is that, as to our decisions, actions, or omissions, prior states can only be one factor and not the “determining” one.  Why? Because “The agent’s control is exercised not through the efficacy of prior states of the agent (as on causal theories of action), but in the action itself. Alice’s causing her intention to tell the truth is itself an exercise of control.”
What the identical world’s hypothetical assumes is the efficacy of prior states.  Why else note it?  Why else would one set the supposed problem up this way?  It begs the very question as it only becomes a problem when one assumes the “efficacy of prior states”.  If the efficacy is, rather, in the action itself, regardless of prior states (although a factor), then we can see two people with identical prior states making different decisions or acting differently.
Now, I don’t believe for a second that the above responses to the luck/randomness “problem” will suffice for JP, Bernard, or Burk.  But, again, let’s get over this idea that this supposed problem is ignored or not addressed in the literature.  I’ve only noted two sources here for brevity, but there are many, many more.  Further, this supposed problem does not concern me in the least—at all.  I think it only exists or becomes a problem if one assumes the sole efficacy of prior states, which, it seems to me, is to just assume determinism.  It assumes there is no free agent that can act otherwise than what the prior states determine must happen.
Most importantly, this supposed problem pales in comparison to a view that leaves us without any true or real moral responsibility (only legal), is fatalistic, and clearly could have negative (to be generous!) consequences culturally if actually believed and acted upon.  To raise the randomness issue as a concern in comparison would be like a person who has just been arrested for burning a forest down, telling the arresting officer who is lighting a cigarette to be careful with those matches.  Seriously?  To be completely honest—I can’t even take this supposed “problem” seriously.  It is a speck compared to the log of problems associated with materialistic determinism.  Anyone might want to focus there first—just saying.
So, moving on—let’s look at this from another angle.
The more I thought about this issue of free-will the more I realized I needed to address the issue from the theological discussion or perspective.  The secular philosophical conversation seems to leave us with dead ends or the attempt to show how the supposed dead ends actually lead somewhere.  As a Christian, while I can evaluate and understand the issue from many different perspectives, at the end of the day, I have to try and unpack this from my own narrative/perspective—the one I think makes the most sense of us as humans and of this world.
To do so I will use perhaps an unlikely source and one not even meant to really address free-will per se other than in a derivative manner.  The paper I will use as a way to discuss my own perspective is here.  Many are probably not familiar with David B. Hart but he is an American Eastern Orthodox theologian/philosopher.  Whether one agrees or disagrees with anything Dr. Hart writes or says, he is a very formidable voice and quite brilliant.  I don’t think anyone disputes that description, regardless any other views they may hold of him.
So, are we “free” and what does it mean to be “free”?  Hart I think gives us a sketch of an answer here:
“In the end of all things is their beginning, and only from the perspective of the end can one know what they are, why they have been made, and who the God is who has called them forth from nothingness.”
To articulate any sort of understanding of free will, we must do so with a view toward our end (not the beginning), which is the creation completed or realized.  My view of free-will is shaped by the fact I view humans as created beings and not simply purely material accidents of existence.  Further, as created, they have a teleology—a purpose.  There is an end to which they were created, to which they are bent. 
“For, as the transcendent Good beyond all beings, he is the transcendental end of any action of any rational nature; and then, obviously, the end toward which God acts must be his own goodness: he who is the beginning and end of all things. And this eternal teleology, viewed from the vantage of history, is a cosmic eschatology. As an eternal act, creation’s term is the divine nature; within the orientation of time, its term is a “final judgment.” No matter how great the autonomy one grants the realm of secondary causes, two things are certain. First, as God’s act of creation is free, constrained by neither necessity nor ignorance, all contingent ends are intentionally enfolded within his decision. And, second, precisely because God in himself is absolute, “absolved” of every pathos of the contingent, his moral “venture” in creating is infinite. For all causes are logically reducible to their first cause; this is no more than a logical truism, and it does not matter whether one construes the relation between primary and secondary causality as one of total determinism or utter indeterminacy, for in either case all “consequents” are—either as actualities or merely as possibilities—contingent upon their primordial “antecedent,” apart from which [they] could not exist. Moreover, the rationale—the definition—of a first cause is the final cause that prompts it; and so if that first cause is an infinitely free act emerging from an infinite wisdom, all those consequents are intentionally entailed—again, either as actualities or as possibilities—within that first act; and so the final end to which that act tends is its whole moral truth.”
Now, the above does seem to me to be a sort of determinism, but it is one completely different than that of a purely material, law-like, mathematical, cause-and-effect determinism.  It is the idea that all creation tends toward its end and how could it tend otherwise, given its created nature?
Now, here is another aspect to free-will Hart brings up and it seems to go to JP’s point about randomness:
“It might not do, if one could construct a metaphysics or phenomenology of the will’s liberty that was purely voluntarist, purely spontaneous; though, even then, one would have to explain how an absolutely libertarian act, obedient to no ultimate prior rationale whatsoever, would be distinguishable from sheer chance, or a mindless organic or mechanical impulse, and so any more “free” than an earthquake or embolism.”
So here he addresses the objection of “sheer chance” and notes that a Christian view of free-will is not one of a “purely voluntarist” or “spontaneous” sort of freedom.  Rather, we should see free-will as:
“…a power inherently purposive, teleological, primordially oriented toward the good, and shaped by that transcendental appetite to the degree that a soul can recognize the good for what it is. No one can freely will the evil as evil; one can take the evil for the good, but that does not alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it. It makes no more sense to say that God allows creatures to damn themselves out of his love for them or of his respect for their freedom than to say a father might reasonably allow his deranged child to thrust her face into a fire out of a tender respect for her moral autonomy.”
One aspect we need to clarify is one of the gravity of choice or action.  Whether one is a determinist or libertarian, we are normally not concerned with trivial choices or actions.  Why did I turn right on this road, when I normally turn left?  Why did I decide to eat melon for breakfast instead of my usual oatmeal?  As to our trivial decisions, actions, and choices, both the determinist and libertarian, regardless their abstract beliefs about such matters, would probably respond: “I don’t know why I did that.  I just did.”  As noted in the second paper, lacking a reason doesn’t equal a lack of control.  Because I cannot give a reason for my actions doesn’t mean I can’t control my actions or choices.  My first person experience is such that I know I could have done otherwise, even if I can’t articulate a reason for my trivial choice or action.  Its very triviality, non-importance, lends itself to forgetting, to not even trying to formulate a reason.  In fact, to do so, would be odd.  Our minds and lives move too quickly for a reason to even present itself in such cases.  Again, does this mean I have no control?  Of course not.  One (no articulable reason) does not lead of necessity to the other (lack of control).  That simply does not logically follow.  
When it comes to choices and actions of some gravity however, most rational persons have reasons.  And I would agree with Hart that decisions and actions of any gravity are born out of this dynamic:
“No one can freely will the evil as evil; one can take the evil for the good, but that does not alter the prior transcendental orientation that wakens all desire. To see the good truly is to desire it insatiably; not to desire it is not to have known it, and so never to have been free to choose it.”
Or, as he puts it here:
“…For Maximus, the natural will is free because it tends inexorably towards God, and the gnomic will is free precisely to the degree that it comes into harmony with the natural will. And so on. Since, after all, all employments of the will are teleological–necessarily intentionally directed towards an end, either clearly or obscurely known by the intellect–and since the Good is the final cause of all movements of the will, no choice of evil can be free in a meaningful sense. For evil is not an end, and so can be chosen under the delusion that it is in some sense a good in respect of the soul (even if, in moral terms, one is aware that one is choosing what is conventionally regarded as ‘evil’); and no choice made in ignorance can be a free choice.”
Now, it appears that whether a trivial decision (turning left here when 99% of the time I turn right) or one of gravity (telling the truth or not), he notes that “all employments of the will are teleological–necessarily intentionally directed towards an end…”  However, some of those decisions and the reasoning behind them are “clearly” known and some are “obscurely” known and I would add that some are not really known at all, or in any sort of way we can always articulate.  Thus, one could argue from this perspective that there is freedom (understood correctly) but no randomness or luck, because all such movements are, ultimately, teleological.
Is this a sort of determinism?  It depends upon what we think such entails.  Does it mean we are not free?  Well, again, we are free only in the sense we can see and understand the good.  The truth does indeed set us free.  An ignorant person, or a slave, is not truly free, even though their first person experience is such that they are, within the bounds of their ignorance and slavery.    We are free within the bounds of creation understood as a good creation brought into existence by a good creator, with a good end in mind.  A poor analogy might be a jet airliner.  We are free to get up and move around the jet, eat what we like, read, sleep, and choose a host of other actions, entirely as free agents, undetermined, but there are boundaries we cannot change or cross as to its trajectory or its very form or walls.  If we were to imagine existence this way, we might say we are indeed free within the bounds of time, but may not realize that freedom in its true form until temporal time is no more and we are in the eternal “now” so to speak (or eternity).  This is, of course, saying that all things will be redeemed eventually.  Within the Christian tradition, this is disputed, but I agree with Dr. Hart and other universalists in that regard.
And again, if this is a type of determinism, it is not the mindless, impersonal, accidental, without any meaning, purely random type of determinism believed to be the case by materialists/physicalists.  Rather, it is a determinism (for lack of a better word) of love; one that has a teleology.  How then are we free?  The best way I can see this is to give an example from one of the best known stories in the Gospels, the Prodigal Son.  In temporal time, in this life, we can reject this love but we always do so (like the prodigal) out of ignorance.  If not in this life, then in eternity, once all ignorance is removed, once we “see” and understand that which calls forth and “awakens” all desire, once we feel and understand a love incomprehensible, our will is then truly free and we will use that freedom as noted in Luke’s Gospel, chapter 15:
17 When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
The Judeo-Christian narrative is that creation is broken, but good.  All of creation is in the process of coming to its “senses”.  All of creation will one day get up and return to its father.  This can be the only result of a true freedom, wherein we know as we are known and we are no longer slaves to ourselves and any remaining brokenness.  Is this an “efficacy of prior states”?  I don’t think so.  Rather, it is an efficacy of the end of all things; it is efficacious only in the sense of eternity and only in the sense of coming to that which is our end.  That which is prior is only efficacious because of its end.  Before that end happens or we come to it, we are free in the same sense as the prodigal or even the son who remains at home who was also “free” to leave.  The son, who remained home, remained in ignorance and in the narrative did not “come to his senses”—but was resentful and bitter.  So who was free in the narrative?  We all are on a spectrum of being “free” in this sense, in the same sense as the two sons.
Now, I doubt my unpacking here will suffice for JP, Bernard, or Burk.  Perhaps even Ron may find areas of disagreement.  My thoughts here are tentative and not concrete.  If we take both the secular conversation and the religious, it would appear I am a weird sort of compatibilist; however, it is entirely unlike the secular version which assumes  a meaningless determinism (by faith) but can’t live with its consequences and simply has to try and make room for the 1st person experience.  I believe we are free agents, with real/true moral responsibility.  I also believe there is a trajectory to creation in which all things will be redeemed in eternity.  Perhaps these two beliefs contradict.  I don’t believe they do, but I could certainly be wrong.  I am thinking out loud here, but there you have it.
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39 Responses to On Free Will

  1. Hi Darrell

    Thanks for these. Your two sources attempt to address the luck problem, but to my mind misunderstanding the objection. One does not object that the agent can not cause the decision, but that agent must do so without reason. Neither of your sources address this, perhaps because, like you, they see this as unimportant.

    The objection has always been, well if you have no reason for acting this way, in what sense are you morally responsible for it?

    I understand that the libertarian will argue the case for the determinist is even worse. The claim becomes 'but if you could not have done other, how can you be morally responsible?' The answer is, given that 'could have done other' entails essential randomness, we should look for moral responsibility some place else.

    Specifically, moral responsibility flows from the agent seeing the options ahead, understanding the consequences of action in each case, and then using their value system to choose between sets of consequences. We are morally responsibly precisely because our value systems determine our choices, and so we are held responsible for the values we hold. And, this system of responsibility becomes a social function by which we moderate and influence the value systems of one another.

    This feels like a useful form of moral responsibility to me. The libertarian view, where the value system can not determine the choice, feels distinctly unhelpful, because the motivating factor in the decision is the 'just because' that the view apparently must collapse into.

    I think this in the end is a clash of intuitions. For the libertarian, the 'couldn't have done other' is an unsurmountable psychological barrier, for the rest of us the 'acted for no reason' is equally difficult to swallow.

    The important thing, I think, is not to pretend either of these problems does not exist. That way, the disagreement is at least an honest one.

    Bernard

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  2. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “The objection has always been, well if you have no reason for acting this way, in what sense are you morally responsible for it?”

    Well, I do think they address that objection. What they note is that lack of explanation does not equate to lack of control. We are morally responsible because we do have control, regardless of whether we can articulate a reason for every single decision, act, or omission. And, in fact, for most actions or decisions of any gravity (where we would even care about responsibility) people do give reasons.

    And Hart goes further from a Christian perspective and notes that there is always a reason along a spectrum of freedom, which is how well we understand or know the good.

    I agree that no one should pretend these problems do not exist, and libertarians do not. But their existence and importance are two different things. I don’t see this objection as very problematic, whereas many do see the problems with determinism as problematic to the point of telling us we should live and act as if it’s not true. That is an important difference here.

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  3. Hi Darrell

    I think the problem of determinism (can you have moral responsibility without the ability to do otherwise) is a function of the randomness problem. If the only way to meaningfully be able to 'do otherwise' is to embrace randomness, then the question becomes which is the lesser of the two evils so to speak, in making sense of moral capacity.

    There is a still a hint of denial in your response, I submit. You write:

    “We are morally responsible because we do have control, regardless of whether we can articulate a reason for every single decision, act, or omission. And, in fact, for most actions or decisions of any gravity (where we would even care about responsibility) people do give reasons.”

    In fact, the objection is not about whether we can articulate a reason, but rather about whether a reason can, in principle, exist. The pieces you reference don't seem to address this, and I think I'm write in reading you as not yet accepting an inevitable implication of randomness for the libertarian description of free will.

    As I read it, this puts you in the libertarian mainstream, as they tend to simply ignore the problem, rather than acknowledge the problem of free will is one of framing moral responsibility such that it aligns either with randomness or inability to do otherwise. Compatibilists go for the latter alignment, libertarians seem to deny the former alignment is logically necessary.

    Bernard

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  4. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “I think the problem of determinism (can you have moral responsibility without the ability to do otherwise) is a function of the randomness problem.”

    What? If there is determinism, then there is no randomness. I thought this was only a supposed problem for the libertarian?

    “There is a still a hint of denial in your response, I submit.”

    There is more than a hint; there is outright denial on my part.

    “In fact, the objection is not about whether we can articulate a reason, but rather about whether a reason can, in principle, exist.”

    What? Then why the two world’s hypothetical? Are you telling us that both these writers are not addressing the “randomness” or “luck” problem when they specifically state that is exactly what they are doing? Are we reading the same papers here? I have no idea what you are getting at then.

    “…and I think I'm write in reading you as not yet accepting an inevitable implication of randomness for the libertarian description of free will.”

    What are you talking about? The post and these papers, sources, plus the others I gave you make it very clear I do not and neither do they. What am I not making clear here? No one I’ve cited is ignoring the suppose problem—so I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Where did you or JP bring up a problem of whether or not reasons for our actions and decisions can even exist? What I have heard you stating is that if two people, with the exact same prior factors being present, make different decisions or act differently, doesn’t this mean it is random or just luck. Are you telling us something completely different now? And what does that even mean (can reasons even exist), since we all know we normally have reasons for our actions and decisions. Wow, you lost me here.

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  5. Hi Darrell

    Yes, I can see that for you the randomness problem doesn't exist, and I'm not at all clear why not.

    The problem, as stated, isn't addressed by the sources you've offered. They offer agency as the casual solution, suggesting that luck does not imply lack of control.

    But this is not the issue. one can cede the possibility of uncaused agency, which gives one the required control, but does not escape the luck problem. To use the example from last time, in one world we give money to the beggar, in a world with identical antecedents, we don't.

    Whatever the reason we give for acting in one world, therefore, can not be a reason from the antecedents. We can say, I chose to act this way, but any reason we offer for the controlled action can to reference any antecedents, and in this sense is 'without reason' or 'random'. So, you can provide a reason for the choice, but can not explain why this reason held saw in this circumstance, where it may not have in an identical circumstance.

    There appears to be no way around this problem, and the sources you cite don't provide one. I understand you deny this problem exists. So how do you get around it?

    Bernard

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  6. Burk says:

    “My view of free-will is shaped by the fact I view humans as created beings and not simply purely material accidents of existence.”

    Precisely! Thanks for laying that out honestly.

    “… I have to try and unpack this from my own narrative/perspective—the one I think makes the most sense of us as humans and of this world.”

    Well, if you were of this world, you would take an empirical criterion. Rather, you are of, and see the rest of us of as well, a fantasy world of theology and escatology. Where Jesus will return in some blaze of glory at the end times, rather than global warming slowly robbing us of biological riches, and humans progressively soiling their planet and fighting for dominion as they always have over the thousands and millions of years to come. Or some other reality-tethered vision of the future.

    The point is that the narrative you acknowledge has extremely poor evidence and is wide of the mark of true reality. And that is particularly true of your view of free will, drawing such calamatous conclusions from the opposing side, even though it may be the true state of things.

    “And again, if this is a type of determinism, it is not the mindless, impersonal, accidental, without any meaning, purely random type of determinism believed to be the case by materialists/physicalists.”

    Sheesh- what a diatribe! Materialists strive to form their environments in positive ways, educating, learning, debating, etc. This is a way to shape the next round of choices, so that they come out in positive ways. In this way, determinism is quite meaningful and purposive, in the hands of agents who live consciously. The next level down, the purpose is clearly that of natural selection, not theology, for all the organisms out there without the conscious resources to judge and shape their future choices. Trying to assert theology on top of what is evident and plain is really a waste of time, and your locutions are typical… “All of creation will one day get up and return to its father.” Really? This is what you hang your epistemological hat on?

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  7. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    Can you address my questions?

    “I think the problem of determinism (can you have moral responsibility without the ability to do otherwise) is a function of the randomness problem.”

    What? If there is determinism, then there is no randomness. I thought this was only a supposed problem for the libertarian?

    Where did you or JP bring up a problem of whether or not reasons for our actions and decisions can even exist? What I have heard you stating is that if two people, with the exact same prior factors being present, make different decisions or act differently, doesn’t this mean it is random or just luck. Are you telling us something completely different now? And what does that even mean (can reasons even exist), since we all know we normally have reasons for our actions and decisions.

    Can you address the above?

    “But this is not the issue. one can cede the possibility of uncaused agency, which gives one the required control, but does not escape the luck problem. To use the example from last time, in one world we give money to the beggar, in a world with identical antecedents, we don't.”

    That is the exact hypothetical they are addressing? What indeed are you talking about? They both give an answer to this exact type of hypothetical. I address all this in the post…??? I quote JP exactly, making the very same point you are here and address it…???

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  8. Darrell says:

    Burk,

    I can always count on you for some comic relief. If you can ever get past question-begging and ad hominem types of responses, you let us know, I could then take your responses seriously. In the meantime, these are always good for a laugh.

    Like

  9. Darrell says:

    Also Bernard,

    Are you telling us that both papers are not specifically addressing the randomness or luck “problem”? Or are you telling us there is some aspect of the problem they are missing that you are aware of that these professional philosophers have missed?

    Like

  10. Hi Darrell

    Yes, I am saying exactly what you suggest above, that the heart of the randomness problem is not addressed in either of the pieces you offer.

    Specifically, while they suggest a causal agent no ties ot prior conditions, they do not offer an explanation as to why it might choose one way in one world, and yet differently in an identical scenario. This randomness appears definitionally linked to uncaused agency.

    Bernard

    Like

  11. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    I will ask again: Do you think it a problem for determinism? I thought it was only a libertarian problem?

    “Specifically, while they suggest a causal agent no ties ot prior conditions, they do not offer an explanation as to why it might choose one way in one world, and yet differently in an identical scenario. This randomness appears definitionally linked to uncaused agency.”

    Yes they do. It is in the post. Not sure what the problem is here. Again, are you telling us that neither paper is addressing the randomness problem (when they specifically say they are)? Or are you saying you disagree with their response to it? Or, are you saying they are missing something completely?

    Further, where did you or JP tell us the problem was whether or not if reasons can even exist?

    Like

  12. Hi Darrell

    No, it's a problem for libertarianism. The determinist picture has a particular pathway being the result of prior conditions. It as at the point that we assume, as your sources do, that there is a casual agent with control independent of antecedent conditions, that the problem arises.

    And yes, I am saying there is something being missed completely. Namely, if we permit a causal agent with control, we have no way of saying why in one world they would jump one way, and in an identical way another, beyond 'they just did'. That's the randomness element and this is not addressed here.

    And when was this idea introduced? From the get go. All along the case has been, if we can have two identical worlds with different actions, then we can not, by definition, point to any conditions to explain a choice. As such, we can never, definitionally, explain why in a particular world the causal agent jumps one way or the other, with reference to their values, tastes, desires or assumed consequences. This lack of link between decision and these moral elements is the randomness problem, and has been known of and written about since the classics.

    Bernard

    Like

  13. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “No, it's a problem for libertarianism.”

    Well, then, this was confusing: “I think the problem of determinism (can you have moral responsibility without the ability to do otherwise) is a function of the randomness problem.”

    The above reads like you are noting a problem with determinism.

    “And yes, I am saying there is something being missed completely.”

    Well, I don’t see that so far. Second, that is a rather bold statement coming from someone who is not a professional philosopher. Let’s see if your assertion that something is being completely missed holds up.

    “Namely, if we permit a causal agent with control, we have no way of saying why in one world they would jump one way, and in an identical way another, beyond 'they just did'. That's the randomness element and this is not addressed here.”

    Again, they do address such. When someone says “they just did” we are noting there is no explanation. At the same time, we are noting that such does not translate into there being no control. If there is control, then it is not random even if there is no explanation. I’m not sure what is hard to see there, even if you disagree.

    And, if you do disagree, which clearly you do, then fine. But it is addressed and you have not raised any other aspect that is not addressed in either paper or in the difference between no explanation and no control.

    “…This lack of link between decision and these moral elements is the randomness problem, and has been known of and written about since the classics.”

    We all know this. And from the classics it has been addressed and not ignored.

    Now, if you want to just keep disagreeing with them, just say: I disagree. But please do not keep suggesting the “problem” is ignored or that you are talking about something else, because they are addressing the exact identical world’s hypothetical raised by you and JP. Exact.

    If you have what you think is a defeater for their responses to this “problem”, then please post a response somewhere. We would all love to read it and maybe these professional philosophers would take notice. Perhaps it would be published and add a new wrinkle into the whole discussion. But as for now, you have simply noted a problem determinists have with the libertarian position (something we all know). Okay.

    Like

  14. Hi Darrell

    “If there is control, then it is not random even if there is no explanation. I’m not sure what is hard to see there, even if you disagree.”

    This is precisely the point. The control they posit (causal agency) can not be explained beyond the 'I just did.' What's more, your writers make no attempt to show how this could be the case. Rather, they suggest there is a form of control, and oppose it to randomness (as you do).

    But we must then be clear about what this control is. It is the ability of the agent to choose to act in a particular way. It is not the ability to nominate a reason for this choice (or at least not one that explains why things are potentially different in an identical world).

    So, we are left with the form of randomness both JP and I suggest must exist, choices made such that there is no way of explaining why they are made, in the sense that they can not explain why other reasons did not hold sway. The determinist can clear this hurdle (I ate the cake because my hunger was more important to me than my diet, such that in identical circumstances I would always do this).

    So, the control argument does not address my objection, or indeed the objection down through the ages. Now, you say in the above that this problem has been addressed down through the ages. I'm yet to see such an answer.

    Bernard

    Like

  15. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “This is precisely the point. The control they posit (causal agency) can not be explained beyond the 'I just did.' What's more, your writers make no attempt to show how this could be the case. Rather, they suggest there is a form of control, and oppose it to randomness (as you do).”

    Why does it need to be explained beyond what is posited: causal agency? The explanation, “I just did” doesn’t need further explanation if we are noting at the same time there is no loss of control as that is the very point. Also, your assuming one needs to provide an explanation for something (when they don’t feel they do or feel they have) is not the same as someone not addressing a problem or ignoring it. Your objection now seems to be: They are wrong; as opposed to they ignore or don’t address the problem.

    Again, I don’t see anything being added here. Further, the view posited by Hart does allow for reasons in each case, whether or not one can articulate them

    “The determinist can clear this hurdle (I ate the cake because my hunger was more important to me than my diet, such that in identical circumstances I would always do this).”

    Are you suggesting that determinists always do the same thing in identical circumstances? Seriously? Are they that robotic and programmed they never make any sort of different, contrary, or out of the ordinary decision or action? How boring. If determinism were true, we would all die of boredom. I'm afraid life is a little more complex than that. Also, don’t you think that libertarians can provide the same sort of responses as to their actions or decisions as you give above? In either case, it tells us nothing about whether we “had” to do what we did or not.

    What we see then is they do provide an answer, just one you don’t like or can’t accept. Big difference.

    Like

  16. Hi Darrell

    “The explanation, “I just did” doesn’t need further explanation if we are noting at the same time there is no loss of control as that is the very point.”

    Well, the question is whether 'I just did it' is sufficient for moral responsibility. The charge against the libertarian is that if all their moral choices come down to 'I just did it, no reason', it's hard to build moral responsibility upon that.

    Is control sufficient for moral responsibility? Consider the driver with control of their car, but the lights fail on a dark country road. They can not say why they swerve left or right, they are completely in the dark, but they do have control. Would we hold them morally responsible if they collide into a house?

    “Are you suggesting that determinists always do the same thing in identical circumstances?”
    Determinists say we all do the same thing under identical circumstances. This is of course a hypothetical, as we never in fact face identical circumstances, and so it's hardly boring.

    “Also, don’t you think that libertarians can provide the same sort of responses as to their actions or decisions as you give above? “

    No. This is precisely the point. The libertarian says, I ate because I was hungry. And you say, but why was hunger more important to you in this circumstance, whereas in an identical circumstance you could have chosen otherwise? The libertarian
    's only response can be 'because that's what I chose you be swayed by this time.' And if you press, but why was it the important factor this time, they can have no answer. by contrast the determinist or compatabilist will say 'because hunger does trump diet for me in this circumstance, because I'm really hungry.'

    The compatibilist has control in the sense that their action is a direct consequence of their moral deliberation, and they have reason for their actions. they act because of the circumstance, values, anticipated consequences etc. This yields the moral responsibility we require.

    Against this, the libertarian can posit control but not reason, but do salvage the concept 'could do otherwise'. The question becomes whether this is a good trade-off against reason for action, and which best matches out notion of moral responsibility.

    Bernard

    Like

  17. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “Well, the question is whether 'I just did it' is sufficient for moral responsibility.”

    No one is saying it is. That is what you misunderstand. What is sufficient is not the explanation but the control.

    “Is control sufficient for moral responsibility? Consider the driver with control of their car, but the lights fail on a dark country road. They can not say why they swerve left or right, they are completely in the dark, but they do have control. Would we hold them morally responsible if they collide into a house?”

    Wow, that completely misrepresents what is being talked about here, you get that, right?
    If the lights fail while driving in the dark, one slows down, pulls off the road (I’m assuming one knows where the off-road part of the geography is since he was just seeing it when the lights were on) and he does all this because he is in control and free. Yes, control is sufficient for moral responsibility.

    “The compatibilist has control in the sense that their action is a direct consequence of their moral deliberation, and they have reason for their actions. they act because of the circumstance, values, anticipated consequences etc. This yields the moral responsibility we require.”

    What? Moral deliberation requires us to be free to choose otherwise—that is the only thing that makes “deliberation” possible, which determinism doesn’t allow for. So to then say, well, but I want that result (moral responsibility) so I’m going to try and square this with my prior belief in determinism is exactly why people don’t think compatibilist’s are being logical. It is the cake and eating it too response.

    But you are missing the point here. I don’t care that you have what you think are answers to the solutions proposed by libertarians to this “problem”. All compatibilists and determinists think they do. They jury is still out as far as that goes. The bottom line is that libertarians do address the exact problem noted by you and JP. It is not ignored and has been addressed from the beginning.

    This issue here is that you don’t like or agree with their answers/solutions. Okay, we get that. I don’t see anything else being offered here. So…as always, thanks for the conversation.

    Cheers.

    Like

  18. Hi Darrell

    I think you're confusing control with purpose, here. One can have control in terms of being able to direct the self/car whatever. This is not sufficient for moral responsibility. One must also have purpose. If one acts blindly, for no reason, but nevertheless directs the action, is in control of it, then I, and many others, suggest this is insufficient for moral responsibility.

    Now, it is precisely this lack of reason, the inability to explain why one acted one way and not the other, that makes it seem to the outsider that the libertarian can not clear the responsibility hurdle. You are keen to assert there is a libertarian answer to this problem, yet address only the possibility of control, which forms no part of the case I'm making, whilst ignoring the reason aspect.

    Now, that's the libertarian problem, and against this is the compatibilist problem, and no one denies this exists. Can one have deliberation sufficient for moral responsibility without the ability to do other? This does not appear to be a case where we can reason our way to a solution, as the response of most people is almost visceral. Of course not, cries the libertarian. Seems fine to me, answers the compatibilist. It's a case of clashing intuitions.

    Think about this moral case: I see the beggar. I think about what I have read regarding what encourages the way street donations impact upon behaviours, I think of people I know who have lived on the street, I think what it would be like to be the person in front of me, I consider what's in my pocket and what I was going to do with it, and I weigh up all these factors (if I'm having a particularly rational day, mostly these responses are instinctive). At the end of this, I weight the various factors according to my value set and beliefs, and give the money. To the compatibilist, this feels like deliberation to me. i could not have done otherwise precisely because it is my values and beliefs that drive the decision.

    If I could have done otherwise, then the implication is it is not my values or beliefs sufficiently determining the decision. What is left is the 'I just will, no reason' of your causal agent. Now, to me, it is the link to my values and beliefs that give the moral responsibility, whereas your preference for the random, 'just did it, no reason' is closer to moral deliberation because it allows for alternative paths.

    Now, there's no way to resolve this dispute, it's intuitive, but what is wrong is to deny the dispute exists, and suggest the libertarian doesn't have to confront the essential randomness of their actions. In this case it is some libertarians who seek to have their cake and eat it.

    That the libertarians choose to ignore the problem suggests to me that they are afraid their intuitions will crumble if they confront the true nature of their problem. Compatibilists fully accept that theirs is a form of moral responsibility in which one could not have done otherwise. Indeed, they see this as a virtue when they consider the alternative. The libertarian who says, 'yes, my actions are essentially random, because that's what moral responsibility requires' I respect. It's an honest approach.

    Bernard

    Like

  19. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “Now, there's no way to resolve this dispute, it's intuitive, but what is wrong is to deny the dispute exists…”

    Nowhere have I done that. No reasonable person familiar with the topic denies the dispute exists. What I noted I was denying was that the determinist is correct in his belief—I’ve never denied the dispute and have made that very clear. I should have corrected you when you assumed that is what I meant, but I don’t know how any reasonable person could read a post discussing this very topic, noting sources specifically addressing this topic and the exact identical world hypothetical, and then accuse the writer of denying the dispute existed. It would be like reading Moby Dick and claiming afterward the writer had denied the existence of whales. But, if I do indeed have to spell that out: I do not deny the dispute exists.

    “That the libertarians choose to ignore the problem…”

    Nowhere do they ignore the problem. Nowhere. Read the post. The problem has been addressed as far back as one wants to go and continues to be addressed up to the present moment…as is clear by this very conversation, right?

    As far as denying the dispute exists or that libertarians ignore the supposed problem posed by determinists, you are just flat-out wrong. Why not admit, rather, that the problem is you disagree with their responses or feel they are inadequate in some fashion, which would be the very response we would hear from the libertarian to the responses given by compatibilists and determinists?

    There we would be in total agreement.

    Like

  20. Hi Darrell

    We might be in total agreement. Let's see.

    We both acknowledge that the compatibilist view requires a framing of free will consistent with a world where we could not do otherwise.

    Do you acknowledge the libertarian view requires a framing of free will consistent with a world where we have no reason for the choices we make?

    If so, we are both ackowledging the full nature of the problem.

    Bernard

    Like

  21. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “Do you acknowledge the libertarian view requires a framing of free will consistent with a world where we have no reason for the choices we make?”

    Are you asking what the libertarian position is and how they frame it or are you asking that the libertarian agree with the way a compatibilist/determinist frame the libertarian view and any supposed problems?

    But you divert. So, I will ask again:

    As far as denying the dispute exists or that libertarians ignore the supposed problem posed by determinists, you are just flat-out wrong. Why not admit, rather, that the problem is you disagree with their responses or feel they are inadequate in some fashion (which, by-the-way, is what you just did in your last response), which would be the very response we would hear from the libertarian to the responses given by compatibilists and determinists?

    Again, here we would be in complete agreement.

    Like

  22. Hi Darrell

    I asked a very simple question, because I think your claim that you accept the problem is misleading. the problem is that the libertarian view requires actions without reasons, just as the compatibilist requires choice without possible alternatives. Both of these are highly problematic, but they're what we face. I think you're denying the libertarian problem exists (that the libertarian view implies random choices) and your reluctance to address the question here confirms my suspicion.

    So, you ask why not admit my problem is with the inadequacy of the libertarian response? Well, that's certainly the case. the libertarian response to the randomness problem is inadequate, if the samples you offer are representative. Why? Because they do not address the randomness problem.

    This is not a discussion about who is right or wrong. It is just a suggestion we play fair and acknowledge the nature of the problem each must confront. So, again, do you accept the libertarian view of free will entails actions without reasons? Yes or no?

    Bernard

    Like

  23. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “…I think you're denying the libertarian problem exists (that the libertarian view implies random choices)…”

    I will state it again: I do not deny the problem exists as a problem for determinists/compatibilists as they view the libertarian position. I think the writers noted in the post and Hart give reasonable responses to that problem. In other words they (and I) think it a problem that has reasonable solutions or answers to it, to the point that for libertarians, it is not an unworkable problem–or a problem they seem to lose any sleep over. I don't, for instance, see any libertarians writing articles noting we should not live “as if” some part of what they believe isn't true.

    “So, you ask why not admit my problem is with the inadequacy of the libertarian response?”

    Wow, notice what you did right there? That is not what I asked. Whether the libertarian response is inadequate or not is disputed, just as the determinist/compatibilist would argue regarding their responses.

    You are missing the point here, the point of the first half of the post. You have been telling us is that libertarians do not address or ignore this “problem”, which is patently false and continues to be proven false as this very conversation unfolds.

    Thus, again, why not admit the problem is you disagree with their (libertarians) responses or feel they are inadequate in some fashion, which would be the very response we would hear from the libertarian to the responses given by compatibilists and determinists (which, again, is what you just did in your last response), but this has nothing to do with either side ignoring or not addressing the problems noted by the other?

    I am making a very reasonable point here. Certainly we can agree here?

    Like

  24. Hi Darrell

    Here's where we disagree:

    “I think the writers noted in the post and Hart give reasonable responses to that problem. “

    I'm saying, they don't respond to the problem at all. Remember what the problem is. In two identical worlds, A and B, a libertarian says we can make different choices. Because the worlds are identical, we can not give any of the conditions in the worlds as our reason for acting (as we might well have acted differently in identical conditions). Hence, we are left with that libertarian free will requires us to act in such a way that we can never say why we acted this way, and not another.

    Your cited examples nowhere address this problem. Rather, they argue that the agent can still have control, can still be the cause of the choice. Yes, I agree. The libertarian can say 'I did this because I chose to do this' but cna not answer the 'why did you choose it?' question.

    Hence, allowing for the contribution of your sources, we are still left with the conclusion that the libertarian view of free will entails choices made that can not be explained in terms of reasons one might have for acting (tastes, values, mood etc). Do you agree with this? Yes or no? A single word will do this.

    Bernard

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  25. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “I think the writers noted in the post and Hart give reasonable responses to that problem.” -Darrell

    “I'm saying, they don't respond to the problem at all. Remember what the problem is. In two identical worlds, A and B,…”

    Well this is rather amazing since anyone can read the two papers and see this is exactly the hypothetical they address.

    “Your cited examples nowhere address this problem. Rather, they argue that the agent can still have control, can still be the cause of the choice. Yes, I agree. The libertarian can say 'I did this because I chose to do this' but cna not answer the 'why did you choose it?' question.”

    But they do address the explanation part and so does Hart from a different perspective. Again, they do not ignore or deny any part of this supposed problem. I don’t think you read carefully enough. The issue with free-will is control, doing otherwise. The issue of explanation is secondary and not as important as control, therefore by logic alone there is no need to see the “why” as a problem if the issue is free-will (and it is). Now, you may disagree and obviously you do, but that does not mean some aspect important to you is not being addressed or ignored. You are treating disagreement as being ignored and you are clearly wrong in that regard.

    “Hence, allowing for the contribution of your sources, we are still left with the conclusion that the libertarian view of free will entails choices made that can not be explained in terms of reasons one might have for acting (tastes, values, mood etc). Do you agree with this? Yes or no? A single word will do this.”

    No, I do not. I think 99% of the time, people, no matter what their philosophical beliefs about free-will, can give reasons for their decisions/actions, from the trivial to the grave. For the other 1% or for identical worlds, where no explanation can be articulated, we still have control, which is the key factor as far as being free agents and not determined. I don't believe every reason can be articulated–but I don't think that translates into randomness or luck nor do I think it means we are not free, because (as the papers note) we are still in control.

    As I see this more from Hart’s perspective, I can add there is always a reason, whether clearly or obscurely known:

    “…For Maximus, the natural will is free because it tends inexorably towards God, and the gnomic will is free precisely to the degree that it comes into harmony with the natural will. And so on. Since, after all, all employments of the will are teleological–necessarily intentionally directed towards an end, either clearly or obscurely known by the intellect–and since the Good is the final cause of all movements of the will, no choice of evil can be free in a meaningful sense. For evil is not an end, and so can be chosen under the delusion that it is in some sense a good in respect of the soul (even if, in moral terms, one is aware that one is choosing what is conventionally regarded as ‘evil’); and no choice made in ignorance can be a free choice.”

    Any reasonable person can read the two papers linked in this post (and many others) and Hart, and see that the randomness or luck problem is addressed and not ignored. Any reasonable person can also see that the problem is you disagree with them or think their responses or answers are inadequate, just as a libertarian would disagree with you and think your responses or answers to be inadequate.

    That you see something else going on here, I will leave up to others to ascertain what that might mean. Either way, you are right; I guess we do disagree here all the way around.

    As always, thanks for the conversation. Cheers.

    Like

  26. Hi Darrell

    Thanks for answering unambiguously. You say no, you do not believe the libertarian view implies we have no reasons for our choices. This is precisely what I mean by ignoring the problem.

    The problem is that, if you consider an identical worlds framework, you can not offer a reason why you jumped one way in one world, when you may have jumped another way in identical circumstances. You disagree with this. So, if you consider the giving to a beggar case, if you can offer values, mood, beliefs etc as your reason for giving or not giving (they are identical in both worlds) what reason could you offer?

    If you think your sources have an answer to this, here is the place to identify it. Simply asserting it is addressed, when you could identify the reason mechanism and put this beyond dispute is puzzling, unless you are bluffing.

    Bernard

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  27. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    “You say no, you do not believe the libertarian view implies we have no reasons for our choices. This is precisely what I mean by ignoring the problem.”

    I hate to break this to you but disagreement is not ignoring.

    The rest of your comment is a wonderful example of not listening and not reading. I stand by my last response and all that preceded it and this post.

    Please do not continue (ironically) to respond (proving the problem is not ignored or unaddressed) as clearly we just disagree here. I thought there was some ground here for agreement, but you have shown, once again, I was being naive in that regard.

    Thanks again. Cheers.

    Like

  28. Okay Darrell

    Best

    Bernard

    Like

  29. Burk says:

    Hi, Bernard-

    ” Hence, we are left with that libertarian free will requires us to act in such a way that we can never say why we acted this way, and not another.”

    I am not clear on how or why this is a problem. It is more like a fact. A quantum state in the universe may be different in the two cases. And we never know all our motivations and reasons for acting, in the end, at least withouth much better brain scanners! The 99% that Darrell refers to as being acts we have conscious reasons for was already disposed of by Freud. We are way, way past that.

    The illusion of being a coherent, self-willing but unconnected-with-the-universe “I” is no solution, from the theist side.. it merely ignores all the internal workings of physics et al. in favor of an intuitive postion. But I think the libertarians fall into the exact same trap, imagining that there even is such a thing as “free will”, which they additionally imagine to be contrary to the known physical universe.. a mess all around.

    “The problem is that, if you consider an identical worlds framework, you can not offer a reason why you jumped one way in one world, when you may have jumped another way in identical circumstances.”

    You will have to explain this more fully, at least for me. If the identical worlds are really the same, then anyone, from a theist on down, is going to say that the actions will be the same as well, and deny your premise. If you say that qantum randomness can still be different, then that would also be the source of different thoughts and fates. If you say the worlds are the same, but the gods are different, the souls, and whatever other “supernatural” ingredients you please, then that will be the explanation of the differences. So the thought experiment doesn't seem very productive. Lastly, if you claim that the self exists somehow separately from your identical universes, and can make uninfluences choice, than you have simply conjured the theist case with distinct supernatural ingredients in the two cases, and they are not identical universes after all.

    Like

  30. JP says:

    Hi Burk,

    Let me jump in, if I may.

    If the identical worlds are really the same, then anyone, from a theist on down, is going to say that the actions will be the same as well, and deny your premise. (P)

    The idea is to unpack what the libertarian free willer means by “could have done otherwise” (CDO). My (and I think Bernard's) understanding of their position is that they must deny (P).

    Otherwise, what can (CDO) means? If it means for example “I could have done otherwise if had been less tired” or “… if I had known fact X” or whatever, then we have a definition that also applies to a deterministic world – certainly not what the libertarian wants.

    This is where this thought experiment comes from. In two exactly identical worlds (up to souls, gods and anything else), identical free agents execute two different actions (neither caused nor random). Such an action cannot be justified on the basis of anything in the world (including souls and so on).

    At least, this is what I understand how the libertarian must define CDO.

    Like

  31. Hi Burk

    Really just to echo JP, if the libertarian means anything by saying that their actions are not determined, it presumably means not determined by anything in the prior state (including the state of the soul at time t – 1). If the state of the soul prior to the decision is causal, then that state was also caused and so forth, and you have a brand of determinism.

    To distinguish itself from determinism, libertarianism has hung its hat on the notion of the uncaused cause. Not physically uncaused, but literally uncaused, taking its form in the act of choosing, where that act is not determined by any fact of the world (physical or supernatural) prior to the decision.

    So the two worlds are identical, under libertarianism, and yet different decisions are possible. This is the standard notion, as I understand it, of 'could have done otherwise.' Yes, doesn't make a whole heap of sense to me either, but the insistence that an ability to do otherwise is a necessary condition for moral responsibility in some quarters makes this move a required one for those folk.

    Trouble is, the result is not only an uncaused cause, but also an unmotivated one. And as such, to the rest of us, it feels anything but consistent with moral responsibility.

    Bernard

    Like

  32. Darrell says:

    Burk,

    I’m not sure what this means: “The 99% that Darrell refers to as being acts we have conscious reasons for was already disposed of by Freud. We are way, way past that.”

    In light of this:

    “Freud's psychological theories are hotly disputed today and many leading academic and research psychiatrists regard him as a charlatan. Although Freud was long regarded as a genius, psychiatry and psychology have long since been recast as scientific disciplines, and psychiatric disorders are generally considered diseases of the brain whose etiology is principally genetic. Freud's lessening influence in psychiatry is thus largely due to the repudiation of his theories…” https://www.psychologistworld.com/psychologists/freud_1.php

    It would appear psychiatry is way, way, past you. Freud disposed of nothing.

    “You will have to explain this more fully, at least for me. If the identical worlds are really the same, then anyone, from a theist on down, is going to say that the actions will be the same as well, and deny your premise.”

    Well, if you read the post and the linked papers, you will see that is not the case.

    The rest of your comment is the usual question-begging nonsense. Yawn.

    Like

  33. Darrell says:

    JP,

    “This is where this thought experiment comes from. In two exactly identical worlds (up to souls, gods and anything else), identical free agents execute two different actions (neither caused nor random). Such an action cannot be justified on the basis of anything in the world (including souls and so on).”

    Whether you agree or disagree with the justification, of course it can. It can be justified based upon the belief we are free-agents—the point of both linked papers. The action was neither caused (the efficacy of prior causes) nor random because we still have control even if there is an absence of an articulable reason for our action or decision (the 1%). Just because one can’t articulate a reason doesn’t mean there isn’t one especially if we then introduce Hart’s thoughts regarding the nature of creation and its end.

    But, all this, of course misses the point of the first part of my post, which is that these issues are not ignored or left unaddressed by libertarians, regardless of whether or not one disagrees with them or finds their responses (as they do yours) inadequate. That is my only interest here and main point beyond introducing Hart's ideas into the equation.

    For other ruminations upon the identical world hypothetical see: https://quineatal.wordpress.com/2016/06/13/response-to-criticisms-of-agent-causal-libertarianism/

    Unless any planned response goes to the major point of the first part of the post (ignoring or not addressing the issue)or you want to address Hart's thoughts, please do not simply repeat what we already know, which there is something called the random or luck problem. And please do not repeat any of Bernard's same points, as we already know they simply led to the acknowledgment we disagree all the way round and I don't need to go there again with anyone else–waste of time. Thanks.

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  34. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    In the “quineatal” link, the author adresses the luck problem by asserting that the multi-world scenario is not possible. This is missing the point of the thought experiment – which is to look at a hypothetical situation and analyze it in order to shed light on libertarian free will.

    For the purpose of unpacking the meaning of “could have done otherwise” (CDO) I think analyzing what would happen in identical worlds is equivalent to looking at what would happen if we could replay the same situation again. Let's do that.

    So, in a given situation, a free agent makes a decision D.

    Let's suppose we repeatedly replay the same situation. What happens? If the agent always decides D, then this decision is determined by the situation. Therefore, from time to time, we would observe the agent makes a different decision D1. This gets worse however. If the agent always decides D or D1, then he is not free to decide anything else. Therefore, if we repeatedly play the same scenario over and over again, we would observe the agent makes all possible decisions, at various frequencies.

    This, I think, is required by libertarian free will. Do I get this right?

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  35. Darrell says:

    JP,

    “In the “quineatal” link, the author adresses the luck problem by asserting that the multi-world scenario is not possible. This is missing the point of the thought experiment – which is to look at a hypothetical situation and analyze it in order to shed light on libertarian free will.”

    He knows that is the point of the hypothetical. He is simply noting that from a Christian perspective, it is impossible to conceive of two identical people or two identical gods. However, the hypothetical does indeed provide a problem for those who believe in the efficacy of prior causes or who believe free-will to be an illusion when they consider the libertarian view. Granted. Each paper notes that the hypotheticals (both “roll-back” and “luck”) are problematic only because, “…both these objections fail to take seriously the concept of agent causation.”

    “For the purpose of unpacking the meaning of “could have done otherwise” (CDO) I think analyzing what would happen in identical worlds is equivalent to looking at what would happen if we could replay the same situation again.”

    Which both papers also address. Both papers address the identical world hypothetical and the “replay” hypothetical. Right? O’Connor speaks to the “roll-back” argument and the “luck” or randomness argument. And he also addresses, “The ‘No-Explanation’ Objection…” even noting that: “The objection to which I now turn is old and familiar…”

    So again, like Bernard, you are not addressing my point, which is that the problem is not ignored or left unaddressed, even if you think they are wrong or do not address the problem adequately.

    With your further comments, you are trying to tell us why the libertarian view is wrong or does not adequately address every aspect of what you think is the problem, but we know you feel this way and we know the arguments. We get that. That still leaves my objection (see last response again) unaddressed as you are doing exactly what I asked you not to.

    The issue is the patently false assertion that libertarians ignore these problems or do not address them. You and Bernard are just absolutely wrong to make such an assertion. That is the only issue here to be addressed. If you care to, please do. But if not, please do not continue to argue something that isn’t even the point here. It may be your point, but we know that already. It is not mine. Do you want to address my point or not?

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  36. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    ¥ou misread me.

    I was asking for clarification about the libertarian position by running this little thought experiment. According to my understanding, we would get the result I described. But I am no libertarian, so I am asking you. Would that be the result?

    I think you agree, at least this fits with your answer to Burk where you deny that the actions of a free agent would be necessarily the same in two identical worlds.

    In my comment, I have not said this is a problem and I have said nothing about libertarians ignoring it or giving inadequate answers. I have only asked for clarification.

    Of course, whether you want to clarify the libertarian position or not is up to you but I think this thought experiment is a good place to start. It's a very simple question I'm asking.

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  37. Darrell says:

    JP,

    “In my comment, I have not said this is a problem and I have said nothing about libertarians ignoring it or giving inadequate answers. I have only asked for clarification.”

    What? Do you not remember this comment and many others like it?

    “As Bernard points out, this is the age old problem with this form of libertarian free will and no answer has been forthcoming. Libertarians simply ignore it and live as if it didn't exist, an example of what you're talking about in your post.”-JP

    Now, do you care to address my point? My question is simple too.

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  38. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    When I wrote “In my comment”, I meant just that: the previous comment I made.

    I am all for discussing the libertarian position and addressing any question you care to ask. But, first and foremost, I want to be sure I get this position correctly. Therefore, I explained how I understand it, using this little thought experiment, asking if I get it right.

    You won't tell. Ok, this is your choice.

    Perhaps another time.

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  39. Darrell says:

    JP,

    “When I wrote “In my comment”, I meant just that: the previous comment I made.”

    You are quibbling and diverting. Please. You know as well as I that you indeed have been making assertions like the one noted and is the reason for the first part of my post.

    And, clearly, these are false assertions. In fact, libertarians have not ignored or failed to address these “problems”. That is obvious from the post and links. Do you agree?

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