Caputo: Introduction

I finished the book by Caputo (see previous post).  Great book.  In a very readable and winsome fashion he lays out a postmodern perspective regarding “truth.”  As noted already, he speaks to how I would describe my own view of truth—or I should rather say—I agree with Caputo.  He also wrote this for a lay audience and not professional philosophers; it is very accessible.  Also, he is not writing from a religious or Christian perspective.  However, what he articulates certainly doesn’t exclude such a perspective although it certainly disagrees with fundamentalist perspectives whether secular or religious.
For my next series of posts, I plan to review the book and go chapter by chapter.  Hopefully this may help any readers better understand my own position (such as it is) regarding “truth” and it certainly speaks to this whole serious of recent conversations surrounding narratives, truth, objective, subjective, and so on.
Much of what I will do is let Caputo speak for himself.  I will quote large parts and comment where I feel it pertinent.
Caputo starts off by noting the mobility of modern society.  We are on the go, on the move, always it seems.  Most of us travel and very few find themselves secluded from interaction with not only their greater communities (town, state, country) but the world itself.  The worldview of many however, was forged in a time when some never left their hometowns.  A great example is Immanuel Kant:
“Kant read the travel literature of the day, journals kept by ships’ captains, but he never saw the inside of a ship.  He was also a leader of the Enlightenment, which emphasized the Universal standards of Pure Reason.  But the problem for Kant was that ‘universal’ had a way of collapsing into ‘European’, while ‘pure’ tended to mean never having met anyone else.” 
But life and the world, for the most part, for most Westerners, are no longer like that.  This life on the move, one in which we constantly brush shoulders with different views and perspectives, has created a “vertigo” and it is this vertigo that Caputo calls postmodernism.
In this life on the move we notice “difference.”
“Difference is a buzz word for postmodernity just the way ‘universal’ was for modernity, a word that I will use throughout to signify the Enlightenment, the age of Reason that first emerged in Europe in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries and which subsequently shaped the contemporary world of science, technology and civil liberties.  Universal is a modern motif, difference is a postmodern one.”
He then goes on to point out other differences:
“Modernists tended to think the whole was a system unified by a central power (God, if you went to church, nature, if you didn’t) where all the clocks and trains ran on time.  Postmodernists tend to think things hang together laterally, linked up like a web, say, a world wide web, where it makes no sense to speak of who is in control or even of where it begins or ends…Modernists think things are rule-bound and mathematical; postmodernists appreciate the irregular and ‘chaosmic’, to borrow a felicitous neologism from James Joyce, meaning a judicious mix of chaos and cosmos…this postmodern effect even showed up in physics, when the paradoxes of Relativity and Quantum Theory replaced the regularities of Newtonianism, and in mathematics, when Kurt Gödel unnerved classical mathematicians with his undecidability theorems in 1931”
But Caputo is mostly talking about postmodernism as it has taken effect culturally.  He then addresses it as way of thinking or “seeing.”

“What then, in brief, is the postmodern, not as a culture, but as a mode of thought?  To begin with, the ‘post’ does not mean anything anti-modern or reactionary against the advances made in modernity, nor some attempt (always futile and nostalgic) to take flight to the premodern.  The best way to think of postmodern thought is as a style, rather than as a body of doctrines; it is an inflection or alteration that continues the ‘project’ of modernity, but by other means.  Where modernity thinks there are pure rules and a rigorous method—in ethics as well as in science—postmodernity advises flexibility and adaptability.  Where modernity thinks that things divide into rigorously separate categories, like reason and emotion, postmodernity thinks that these borders are porous, and that each side bleeds into the other…Modernists do not welcome exceptions to their rules; postmodernists think that the exception is the engine of creativity and the occasion on which the system can reinvent itself…So if you ask postmodernists, ‘What is truth?’ they are most likely to squint and say, ‘It depends.’”
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46 Responses to Caputo: Introduction

  1. Burk Braun says:

    Hi, Darrell-

    Right here, it would be good to stop, and in proper philosophical fashion define your terms and your context. Truth about what? About gravity? About how you feel about white people? About how to deal with murder? About the existence of god with various explicit properties of goodness, meddling-ness, power, etc.?

    This book and your blog are great danger of sweeping all these topics into a nebulous haze of meaninglessness in your headlong wish to preserve a bit of validity and “truth” for concepts that do not merit it, even as diversity, relativity, and yes, even post-modernism apply perfectly well to other concepts.

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  2. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    But it is these very divisions (fact/value) he is calling into question, indeed the postmodern calls into question. You think there is a clean, clear division between fact (gravity) and a value (how we feel about other people). One is an objective fact for you and the other a subjective preference. This is all disputed after postmodernism. You cannot simply assume the modern view and beg the question.

    And, as the reviews of each chapter go, it will become clearer exactly how these divisions are called into question and exactly how he views “truth”.

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  3. Burk Braun says:

    Darrell-

    I recognize the assertions of postmoderism, which you repeat frequently. But what is behind them? have they “problematized” gravity? No. The Wiki page on the subject states: “Virtually all modern Philosophers affirm some sort of fact-value distinction, insofar as they distinguish between science and 'valued' disciplines such as ethics, aesthetics, or the fine arts. However, philosophers such as Hilary Putnam argue that the distinction between fact and value is not as absolute as Hume envisioned.”

    So there are no blanket statements available to you. You have to define your terms and deal with individual cases. Is god a fact? Or is it a belief with no evidence? Are angels facts? Are morals facts, or do they arise from our feelings, which are inherently subjective? All this req uires detailed, explicit discussion, not nebulous assertion. But very well. Perhaps your future posts address this explicitly.

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  4. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    No blanket statements. I'm simply pointing out what you yourself quote, that, “…Hilary Putnam argue[s] that the distinction between fact and value is not as absolute as Hume envisioned.” No serious postmodernist would argue that gravity has been problematized. What has been problematized are these divisions.

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  5. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    I'm not sure how important this is but Caputo's comments on physics and mathematics are certainly telling.

    […] this postmodern effect even showed up in physics, when the paradoxes of Relativity and Quantum Theory replaced the regularities of Newtonianism

    Postmodern effect? In 1905? And what paradoxes? Relativity and QM are as much regular and mechanistic as anything Newtonian. Unless he's referring to these theories defying common sense – but this hardly qualifies as paradoxes.

    and in mathematics, when Kurt Gödel unnerved classical mathematicians with his undecidability theorems in 1931.

    This overstates the case, in addition to having nothing to do with postmodern ideas. Yes, Gödel's theorems showed that Hilbert's program could not succeed. But this was largely irrelevant to the work of mathematicians outside the field of mathematical logic and the foundations of mathematics. Hardly any impact at all on classical math.

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  6. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    If one wants to equate facts and values (which is what denying the distinction between them means), there are basically two strategies.

    One might want to (1) make values more like the objective facts of old, something Sam Harris and others claim they're doing. Or, one might (2) make facts more like values by, so to speak, questioning their aura of objectivity. Or some combination of the two.

    Now, you say that gravity has not been problematized and you certainly agree that the roundness of the earth is established as objectively as can be. This seems to point towards (1), keeping the objective nature of these and similar facts.

    On the other hand, postmodern ideas seem very much to go in the direction of (2), away from objectivity.

    Isn't this trying to have it both ways? Values cannot be established empirically (as I understand your views) while facts like gravity and the shape of the earth can. This clear difference seems excludes strategy (1). Then, the only apparently feasible direction seems to be (2) but this would require doubting facts nobody wants to doubt.

    Hopefully this will become clearer.

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  7. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    Going back to my first comment… Is Caputo seriously saying there is a postmodern effect in science, as the quote suggests?

    I mean, the idea of postmodern physics or mathematics is completely ludicrous. Can you make sense of this?

    Note that I will be without internet for a few days, so I might not be able to comment again before the end of the week,

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  8. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    Of course he is not saying there is a postmodern effect upon the way the world physically operates. Now, of course there has been a postmodern effect upon the way scientists interpret evidence. And those developments in science did cause physicists and mathematicians, at the level of high-theory in those disciplines, to re-evaluate and to reconsider their prior theories. And that is simply a matter-of-fact as any book on the history of those disciplines will tell you.

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  9. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    I am all for different fields influencing each other but, in this case, this is stretching things quite a bit.

    Caputo's examples (Relativity, QM, undecidability theorems) refer to discoveries made decades before anything postmodern came on the scene, in the heydays of modernism and the dawn of logical positivism. If there was any influence, it was the other way around, from physics and math to other fields.

    Unless postmodern influences extend back in time before the notion was thought of. An obviously interesting concept, of course.

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  10. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    “Caputo's examples (Relativity, QM, undecidability theorems) refer to discoveries made decades before anything postmodern came on the scene, in the heydays of modernism and the dawn of logical positivism. If there was any influence, it was the other way around, from physics and math to other fields.”

    He is speaking in retrospect. When those theories dawned, they began, in those disciplines, to open up the spaces for the postmodern perspective. Beyond that, as Caputo will argue later, the postmodern perspective is latent and present in Hegel, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche, which all pre-date those breakthroughs in math and physics. But, again, he is not saying that a perspective changed physical reality. It did change the way that reality was now going to be interpreted however and what it meant at the level of high theory.

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  11. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    When those theories dawned, they began, in those disciplines, to open up the spaces for the postmodern perspective.

    Well, math is my field (as you perhaps know) and I have no idea what a “postmodern perspective in mathematics” might mean. The whole idea is in fact quite bizarre. (Can't speak for physics but I believe the same applies.)

    To be sure, there have been (sort of) changes in perspective with the passing centuries. For instance, the study of formal systems (including Gödel's contribution) is a relatively recent phenomenon, arising in large part out of the need to build mathematics on more rigorous foundations. But this need arose internally within mathematics as the 19th century went on (more or less).

    Note that the work on formal systems aimed at a more rigorous approach to mathematics, something Caputo associates with modernity and opposes to the postmodern ideas of flexibility and adaptability.

    In any case, these are not postmodern ideas. If anything, mathematics and science have always been flexible and adaptable. What changed is that they became more rigorous with time, not less.

    Frankly, judging from these quotes, it's hard to see what Caputo is talking about.

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  12. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    “Well, math is my field (as you perhaps know) and I have no idea what a “postmodern perspective in mathematics” might mean.”

    Really: Are you aware of sources like these:
    http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/16/opinion/oe-wertheim16

    http://books.google.com/books?id=NY12wK18DZ0C&pg=PA16&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

    http://books.google.com/books?id=y987B2KUVAUC&pg=PA45&dq=the+postmodern+and+mathematics&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=the%20postmodern%20and%20mathematics&f=false

    http://books.google.com/books?id=X3GkrR01Z-4C&pg=PT238&dq=the+postmodern+and+mathematics&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q=the%20postmodern%20and%20mathematics&f=false

    I’m talking at the level of philosophy of science/mathematics—the level of high theory. And you understand, right, that no one is saying postmodernism affects physical reality (and neither does modernity for that matter)? And, by the way, physics is probably the area of science that many feel is most conducive to a postmodern perspective.

    “In any case, these are not postmodern ideas. If anything, mathematics and science have always been flexible and adaptable. What changed is that they became more rigorous with time, not less.”

    No one is claiming they became less rigorous. Not sure your point.

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  13. Burk Braun says:

    “High theory”.. that is pretty funny. Is that a theory you have when you are high?

    I'll accept your point vs JP that postmodernism could “explain”, or account for past phenomena retrospectively. That happens a lot in other theories, like geology, etc. So fine. That presupposes, of course, that you are applying a theory about reality to a real reality out there, and finding a correspondence which you then can label with that magic word: “truth”.

    But to its content. Does it explain or account? Is it more than an attitude? Is it in substance anything more than the self-criticism and rigor that have been part of any successful field of scholarship, without calling itself postmodernism?

    And more critically, does it apply itself to its various subjects in an explicit, disciplined way, not letting the hermeneutic critique of geology somehow bleed into an argument for theism? Which I think is how you read it. What substance it has seems rather minor, and what pretensions it has seems far overblown. That is the way I read it.

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  14. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    Thanks for the links. The first one, the article on Davis, is the most explicit and, yes, I am aware of this kind of ideas. If you want to call these postmodern, then everything is and the term becomes so wide ranging as to be almost useless.

    If you look at the specific techniques mentioned in the text (computer simulation, approximating answers for practical purposes, very extended computer-aided proofs), I don't think there's anything in this that mathematicians of old (Euler, for instance) would not have used if they had been available. They don't replace proofs but provide a way to achieve practical results when needed.

    I will agree that there is a shift in the way a lot of mathematics is being done in practice, characterized by extensive use of computers. But this is an answer to the availability of computers (and also, no doubt, to the fact that much of the easy problems have been solved). Computers are fun and powerful – why not use them? Had I stayed in math, this is probably what I'd have done. However, difficult to see how this can be construed as a postmodern influence.

    Is there anything postmodern in the philosophy of mathematics? Perhaps so, I don't know. But philosophy of X is not X and what is done in the former does not automatically (or even often) translate to the latter.

    Be careful also to distinguish between what Davis is saying and some of the journalist's interpretations. I don't think any mathematician would describe mathematics as project of “communal negotiation.”

    As for: No one is claiming they became less rigorous. Not sure your point.

    I'm referring to a quote from the text: Where modernity thinks there are pure rules and a rigorous method—in ethics as well as in science—postmodernity advises flexibility and adaptability.

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  15. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    “If you want to call these postmodern, then everything is and the term becomes so wide ranging as to be almost useless.”

    I’m not the one who called it postmodern, the writer did -and he and the writers of these others books (and many others) clearly don’t think it “useless”.

    “…They don't replace proofs but provide a way to achieve practical results when needed.”

    I don’t know what you are referring to here, something in the LA Times article?

    “Computers are fun and powerful – why not use them? Had I stayed in math, this is probably what I'd have done. However, difficult to see how this can be construed as a postmodern influence.”

    I missed where someone is saying computers are a postmodern influence in the area of mathematics. Where is this?

    “Be careful also to distinguish between what Davis is saying and some of the journalist's interpretations. I don't think any mathematician would describe mathematics as project of “communal negotiation.”

    Are you saying Philip Davis, the “emeritus professor of mathematics at Brown University”, is not a mathematician? He also said, “…that mathematics is “a multi-semiotic enterprise.”

    “I'm referring to a quote from the text: 'Where modernity thinks there are pure rules and a rigorous method—in ethics as well as in science—postmodernity advises flexibility and adaptability.'”

    He is speaking of postmodernism in general, not specifically to the area of mathematics (notice the break between the two sections I quote). And the point is not about being “less” rigorous (whether in science or mathematics); the point is our perspective and approach as we think about these areas—for instance are they “rigorously” separate categories?

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  16. Darrell says:

    To clarify:

    “…for instance are they “rigorously” separate categories?”

    By “they” I mean “reason/emotions” and not science and ethics-although the question is pertinent there as well.

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  17. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    We may pursue this if you are interested, I certainly am, but let's try to keep a clear focus and avoid running pass each other.

    What intrigued me is this, by Caputo: this postmodern effect even showed up in physics, when the paradoxes of Relativity and Quantum Theory replaced the regularities of Newtonianism, and in mathematics, when Kurt Gödel unnerved classical mathematicians with his undecidability theorems in 1931. I just don't see what “postmodern effect” means in relation to these examples.

    The LA Times article (on Davis) seems more promising but, once you look at the actual examples, it is not such a big deal, despite the spin given to the text.

    So, let me suggest the following. Pick any example you want – from the three Caputo provides or from the article – and tell me what you see as the “postmodern effect” in this specific case – what postmodern idea/concept played what role in relation to the case. This would be very helpful.

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  18. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    I don't see you raising anything to pursue. I would be happy if you just addressed my comments and answered the questions.

    I already addressed what I thought he meant regarding the “effect” showing up. More importantly, I addressed his real points.

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  19. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    What I am looking for is an example of a specifically postmodern idea or concept that played a significant role in any of the three discoveries given as examples by Caputo (relativity, QM and Gödel's theorems). There is nothing like a real life example to clarify things.

    If you say there is none (and that, therefore, Caputo means something different), we agree. I certainly can't think of any and I hoped that, with your understanding of postmodernism, you could help me out.

    To be sure, there are some, within the philosophy of mathematics (and, presumably, physics), who use a postmodern approach. But I'm specifically interested in the disciplines themselves (as per Caputo's examples)..

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  20. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    So does this mean you are not going to address my comments or questions?

    And as noted already, I addressed what I thought he meant.

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  21. Darrell says:

    “To be sure, there are some, within the philosophy of mathematics (and, presumably, physics), who use a postmodern approach. But I'm specifically interested in the disciplines themselves (as per Caputo's examples)…”

    Right, he was addressing the disciplines at the level of philosophy within those disciplines.

    No one is saying there is postmodern math where 2+2=5 if that is your real point.

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  22. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    Maybe Caputo was thinking of the philosophy of physics and mathematics, maybe not. What he wrote, however, referred to specific results within the disciplines themselves, not their philosophy.

    In any case, I take it you agree with me that, to quote myself, there is no specifically postmodern idea or concept that played a significant role in any of the three discoveries given as examples by Caputo. This was my real point, as I thought was clear. Please confirm we agree on this.

    As to the other questions. Yes, my mentions of computers referred to specific points within the article on Davis. The gist of the article is just this: we now can use computers as a complementary tool to study problems that were previously intractable. The postmodern bit seems to me more spin than substance.

    I can't really comment on Davis saying mathematics is a “multi-semiotic enterprise” without knowing what he meant by that. Likewise for similar statements.

    You've mentioned “high theory” a few times. Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by this.

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  23. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    “Maybe Caputo was thinking of the philosophy of physics and mathematics, maybe not. What he wrote, however, referred to specific results within the disciplines themselves, not their philosophy.”

    He never said that postmodernism played a role in those discoveries. And he was speaking to the philosophy of those disciplines at an academic level. He’s a philosopher. The book is about philosophy (Truth)-not math or physics. He made a passing reference. What we agree upon is (I hope) that neither modernity nor postmodernity affect physical or mathematical laws. If that is the type of “role” you are speaking of, actually affecting physical laws, then we agree. And, of course, no one was suggesting otherwise.

    “As to the other questions. Yes, my mentions of computers referred to specific points within the article on Davis. The gist of the article is just this: we now can use computers as a complementary tool to study problems that were previously intractable. The postmodern bit seems to me more spin than substance.”

    I re-read the article. I can’t find a single reference to the idea that postmodernism had anything to do with computers. In fact, computers have nothing at all to do with the substance of what he’s talking about. The “gist” you suggest isn't even present in the article. So you may want to re-read the article before you tell us what you think is “useless.”

    “I can't really comment on Davis saying mathematics is a “multi-semiotic enterprise” without knowing what he meant by that. Likewise for similar statements.”

    Well, the writer helps us know what he meant by adding, “…prone to ambiguity and definitional drift.” By the way, I hope you do agree that Davis is a mathematician.

    From Wikipedia regarding semiotics:

    “Semiology, is the study of signs and sign processes (semiosis), indication, designation, likeness, analogy, metaphor, symbolism, signification, and communication. Semiotics is closely related to the field of linguistics, which, for its part, studies the structure and meaning of language more specifically. However, as different from linguistics, semiotics also studies non-linguistic sign systems. Semiotics is often divided into three branches:

    • Semantics: Relation between signs and the things to which they refer; their denotata, or meaning
    • Syntactics: Relations among signs in formal structures
    • Pragmatics: Relation between signs and sign-using agents”

    “You've mentioned “high theory” a few times. Perhaps you should clarify what you mean by this.”

    It simply means at the highest academic levels.

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  24. JP says:

    Hi Darrell,

    Among references to computers: finding large prime numbers (with some probability), the proof of the four colour theorem, computer verification of proofs, finding approximative solutions to equations by computer. Granted, it's not all about computers: at the top there is also a reference to complex proofs that are extremely difficult to check.

    The rest is commentary and interpretation. It's all very well to pick up statements like you did but what is needed is to explain their meanings by means of examples. This is how you can see what it's all about. But, it turns out, the examples given in the text are what I mentioned, are rather common place and don't seem to support any substantial postmodern interpretation. If better examples exist, they are not in the text.

    It's interesting how differently we read this. I focus essentially on examples while you appear to ignore them. But the examples explain the rest of the text. For example, when Davis mentions “ambiguity”, what I want to see is an example illustrating his point. Lacking this, I don't know what he means.

    As to Caputo and my question, you misread me. I'm not implying Caputo is saying that postmodern ideas affect physical laws: where does that come from?

    Here it is again: What I am looking for is an example of a specifically postmodern idea or concept that played a significant role in any of the three discoveries given as examples by Caputo (relativity, QM and Gödel's theorems).

    I'm not sure how I could make this clearer: ideas playing a role in discoveries… Nothing about affecting physical laws.

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  25. Darrell says:

    Hi JP,

    “Here it is again: What I am looking for is an example of a specifically postmodern idea or concept that played a significant role in any of the three discoveries given as examples by Caputo (relativity, QM and Gödel's theorems).”

    He never made that claim. He never said a postmodern idea played a role. Hard to show something he is not claiming.

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  26. Darrell says:

    Again, my earlier answer with additions for clarity:

    “He is speaking in retrospect. When those theories dawned, they began, in those disciplines, to open up the spaces for the postmodern perspective [already latent and present]. Beyond that, as Caputo will argue later, the postmodern perspective is latent and present in Hegel, Kierkegaard, and Nietzsche, which all pre-date those breakthroughs in math and physics. But, again, he is not saying that a perspective changed physical reality [or led to those discoveries]. It did change the way that reality was now going to be interpreted however and what it meant at the level of high [read academic] theory.”

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  27. Burk Braun says:

    If I may help out here… I don't think Caputo or Darrell could possibly claim that postmodernism had anything originally to do with the original development of any of the issues JP mentions (quantum mechanics, complex math…). Their development predates post-modernism.

    Caputo seems to claim that his community has aided in later re-interpretations of, or philosophical ruminations about, these fields. Even that seems an enormous stretch to me, other than among postmodernists themselves, who are surely welcome to set up their own echo chambers. But whether their work has affected the views of people in these other fields, later on, or at all… that is the question.

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  28. Darrell says:

    Yes Burk, that is correct with the minor point that the postmodern is latent and present in those philosophers already mentioned which do pre-date those discoveries.

    The other important note is that those were passing references and not his major point.

    It would be nice to focus on those. I'm not going to haggle over his every passing reference or phrasing. Big ideas. That's the point.

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  29. Burk Braun says:

    Darrell-

    To argue that some pet theory is “latent” within some other tradition is poor form, to say the least. Atheism is latent in Christianity, and Christianity is latent in Paganism, and in the end everything is latent in everything else. If a case has not been non-latently made, it has not been made. It seems like yet another way to preserve bad philosophy in some private, prideful, reliquary, if not revanchist, form.

    This is why truth is such a valuable concept, in that it restricts objective reality to one at a time, as it were. While it allows any number of “perspectives” or world views to be subjectively applied, (such as postmodernism), without tagging them with the label “truth”.

    I could go on about your curious styling of “high theory” as well, which, from the perspective of people making rigorous, elaborate and accurate scientific theories that you and Caputo use as culture war grist, seems rather low indeed.

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  30. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    Yes, the matter of anything being latent can be a moot point–I would agree with you.

    My point was that Caputo shows how what we call postmodernism was already present in, at least, the three philosophers I mentioned. In other words, we shouldn't think that because the term “postmoderism” is of recent vintage that the ideas are as well.

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  31. RonH says:

    Hi, Burk…

    You taught me a new word: revanchist. Thanks!!

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  32. Darrell says:

    By the way Burk, postmodernism in no more a “pet” theory than modernity. And in every discipline, including the biological sciences, there is comprehensive theorizing at the highest academic levels, regardless the “rigorous” work below. That “rigorous” work is always being done within the reigning paradigm as created by that theorizing. I will use the word “academic” instead of “high” in the future since that seems to confuse you.

    And the culture wars are created by the fundamentalism of both sides. Something Caputo and I want to avoid. Many do not however.

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  33. Darrell says:

    RonH,

    Good to hear from you. The water is warm. Jump in.

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  34. Burk Braun says:

    Darrell-

    Sorry to be intemperate there. But using “academic' won't help either. The issue is which direction the creation goes in. Do the philosophers really “create the reigning paradigm”? From what I see of the influence of philosophy today, (and in the past), I would say no, quite emphatically.

    While Keynes cleverly said that your average boring economist is the unwitting slave of some defunct economist/philosopher, the definition of philosopher can be exceedingly broad here.. perhaps nothing more than a system of greed justified by pundits of past editorial pages.

    In any case, philosophers spend most of their time justifying or puzzling over past events, in a post-facto exercise of understanding (if they are successful, which is quite rare!) what others have already done and gone. Thus it certainly is with the philosophy of science. In this way, they do not “create” anything, other than pat theories that school teachers in turn inflict on their victims, to memorize things like the “scientific method”, “paradigms”, etc. Not all bad, I'd agree, but not very “creative”.

    There is also the question of what counts as “high” in academic levels. A more subjective matter could hardly be imagined. Perhaps for you, theology is the highest academic pursuit. For me, it is the lowest. So perhaps the high-low thing should be retired in favor of explicit reference to philosophy, theology, or whatever specific field or community you have in mind.

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  35. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    “Sorry to be intemperate there. But using “academic' won't help either. The issue is which direction the creation goes in. Do the philosophers really “create the reigning paradigm”? From what I see of the influence of philosophy today, (and in the past), I would say no, quite emphatically.”

    Well, I'm sure the biologists and others who write the text books, are published in journals, head the departments, and spend significant time traveling and speaking would disagree. As Kuhn noted, the work is done within paradigms. Those are worked out at those “high” academic levels.

    “So perhaps the high-low thing should be retired in favor of explicit reference to philosophy, theology, or whatever specific field or community you have in mind.”

    The community I had in mine was yours and everyone's. That is why I said “every” discipline.

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  36. RonH says:

    Hi, Darrell…

    The water is warm. Jump in.

    No thanks. This looks like the same water y'all have been in for the past year. I was out of ideas way back when.

    It's impressive to watch, though. You guys have been at this for a really long time without anyone throwing fits or smashing stuff up or all that. Civil, if a bit repetitive. But like judo masters locked together, I keep waiting for someone to suddenly execute a really good throw. I can't look away 'cuz I might miss it!

    I just learned a new word though. That was cool.

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  37. Darrell says:

    Yes, and the water is pretty dirty at this point–pretty muddy. I think you can't look away for the same reason people slow down when driving past horrendous vehicle collisions can't look away!

    Well, enjoy the show!

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  38. Burk Braun says:

    Darrell-

    You may misunderstand what a paradigm is. Paradigms are not handed down by the authorities of a given field, let alone handed down by philosophers who cerebrate upon that field from their ivory armchairs. Paradigms arise organically out of communities of any sort as the general view they take of how the world works, and what their role is in dealing with that world. Churches have paradigms, as do scientific fields. Some people are more influential than others in such cultural construction, but it is never just a top-down affair. Nor is it “worked out”, and then handed down.

    Quite the opposite. That is the whole fun of a living, working community, that the next big idea can come from anywhere, and can take the community by storm. Scientific fields try to encourage that process in various explicit ways, (or hinder it), but it is a universal concept.

    For instance, the new pope is leading by following… Catholics have lost the cultural war against various heathenish practices like gay respectability, contraception, etc.. so the only thing left to do is to tacitly accept the community's verdict and move on… to a new paradigm.

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  39. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    No, you misunderstand. The changes sometimes come in the trenches or they come as with Einstein when a theory needed later to be verified. But once the new paradigm is established it is then unpacked, dissected, and even expanded at the academic level. And it is at those levels (whether rightly or wrongly) that the paradigm is kept and established. Those, especially who come after the change, that are working at the practical levels- still work within those boundaries.

    And that goes back to my original point: “And in every discipline, including the biological sciences, there is comprehensive theorizing at the highest academic levels, regardless the “rigorous” work below.”

    The whole point here is that Caputo is addressing the question of “truth” at those levels all within the modern/postmodern conversation.

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  40. Burk Braun says:

    Darrell-

    ” But once the new paradigm is established it is then unpacked, dissected, and even expanded at the academic level. And it is at those levels (whether rightly or wrongly) that the paradigm is kept and established. “

    It may be developed at that level as an academic exercise, but thereafter has no effect back in the field of its subject… the paths diverge virtually completely. This is because paradigms are typically not even conscious, and become conscious in the process of death. This “higher” level philosophizing is a spectator sport, and its social utility is very often rather tenuous.. not high at all.

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  41. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    “This “higher” level philosophizing is a spectator sport, and its social utility is very often rather tenuous.. not high at all.”

    And yet, they will have the last word. Again, the “higher” wasn't meant to disparage. It was to note the difference between the fact a high school biology teacher is not being asked to write the next text book for those going to graduate school, while those who taught him/her- are. Big difference. And it is not “spectator” at all. Those doing the writing and teaching are in the arena. those working at the practical level, within the paradigms still established, are in the stands watching them.

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  42. Burk Braun says:

    We are surely talking about entirely different arenas. The postmodernists have their own arena, the scientists have theirs, and never the twain shall meet.

    Geologists do not give a fig what philosophers say about their field, whether it is insightful or not.

    Nor to the philosophers have the last word. In fact, there is no last word. What is the last word about gravitation? There are facts, there are views about those facts, there are deeper investigations related to prior facts, there are historical tales about how those facts were found.. and then there is postmodernism. Not a last word among them, really, nor a particularly shinning role for postmodernism.

    If you regard armchair punditry as the last word, then each of us individually have the last word on countless topics, such as politics, etc. And if you regard the historical evaluation of a field as the last word, that falls into the far future.

    This whole idea of philosopher kings deciding what the culture must think about topic X, Y, or Z, flies completely in the face of reality. Not the first time such a phenomenon has come up, of course. It is a relic of the Puritan age and prior, when the pastors/ priests were the highest class and told everyone what to think. And age that is long gone.

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  43. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    Well all the rhetorical flourish aside and the pontificating, the reality is that there isn’t such a thing as postmodernists and scientists as if these were separate categories. There are simply scientists who work within certain paradigms, whether modernist or postmodernist. The same goes for geologists, biologists, and any other discipline you want to mention.

    “What is the last word about gravitation?”

    A silly and irrelevant rhetorical question.

    Putting aside all the soapbox nonsense, you do make a very important point when you tell us: “This is because paradigms are typically not even conscious, and become conscious in the process of death.”

    And in this sense, you are right, most geologists, biologists, and scientists go about their business simply assuming the reigning paradigm is the “true” or “correct” picture of the world. What is hard for many is the awareness that modernity is (and has been) in the process of death for some time and is why we are talking about Caputo’s book.

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  44. Burk Braun says:

    But if postmodernity is being discussed explicitly, then it too is conscious and dying. Indeed, it is hardly the vanguard of the future its name neatly makes it out to be, but rather it is already mostly discredited and defunct, before even having the chance to have much of a cultural impact at all. Thankfully so, I must say.

    It is something else that we are not conscious of yet that will succeed modernity, if anything does. Or modernity may just keep right on going. In any case, this is all quite vaporous in comparison to showing that either one has anything particular to do with what you are talking about.

    For example.. “Modernists tended to think the whole was a system unified by a central power (God, if you went to church, nature, if you didn’t) where all the clocks and trains ran on time. Postmodernists tend to think things hang together laterally, linked up like a web, say, a world wide web, where it makes no sense to speak of who is in control or even of where it begins or ends”

    This is complete twaddle. Ever hear about ecological webs? About the physics of mutual graviation, not to mention all the other interacting effects of pretty much every field of science? The god concept.. yes, that is indeed obsolete. Everything else is still current, and was always thus.

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  45. Darrell says:

    Hi Burk,

    “…Ever hear about ecological webs? About the physics of mutual graviation, not to mention all the other interacting effects of pretty much every field of science?”

    Again, he is not speaking to science per-se. He is speaking of the way we think about and “see”; how we interpret the “effects” in every field of science at the philosophical level. He is speaking metaphorically (thus the allusion to the internet). This isn’t a science book and Caputo isn’t a scientist. This is a philosophical book and he is a philosopher. I’m not even sure how you could come up with your response given what you quote—he isn’t even addressing science or “webs” of that nature. Wow. Your response is twaddle.

    “But if postmodernity is being discussed explicitly, then it too is conscious and dying.”

    That doesn’t make sense. Just like when modernity was born out of the Enlightenment, it was then discussed thoroughly—this new way of looking at things. It certainly didn’t mean the Enlightenment was dying too. It doesn’t work that way. These paradigms are unpacked and dissected at the highest academic levels. They eventually make their way to the street (this takes time) and become the conventional wisdom—just the “way things are”. Of course, until something else replaces it. This is the process we have been in and continue to make our way through currently.

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  46. Burk Braun says:

    So.. all this talk of god- is that metaphorical too?

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