Final Postscript (we hope) on Nietzsche

From many of the comments regarding Nietzsche, it is clear more needs to be said, or re-said, since most of this was pointed out in my or other’s responses in the comments.

From the Stanford source on Nietzsche, some points are rather clear:

“Because Nietzsche’s two most common — and closely related — specific targets are, however, Christian and Kantian morality, the critique of the descriptive component of MPS [“morality” in Nietzsche’s pejorative sense”] figures prominently in Nietzsche’s writing, and any account of the logic of his critique that omitted it would not do justice to his concerns.”
From this source as well:
“Nietzsche’s philosophy contemplates the meaning of values and their significance to human existence. Given that no absolute values exist, in Nietzsche’s worldview, the evolution of values on earth must be measured by some other means. How then shall they be understood?”
That is the question he is asking in direct and logical connection to the death of “God”.  I don’t know of any source or interpreter who doesn’t think his question above and his answers are not linked to his atheism.  If one is gone (God/spirit/transcendence), and such was the source of our morality, then we need to come up with something else.  That is called logical connection.  And that something else, whatever it is, cannot simply mirror or imitate what was previously based upon a lie, especially once people know it was a lie.  Thus, Nietzsche was also critical of Kantian morality and the Enlightenment’s attempt to ride on the back of Christian morality under the guise of some imagined universal “reason”.  He said, “No” you simply live in the shadow; what are you going to do now that you know the source is dead?
More importantly, he criticized Christian morality not simply because he thought it based on a falsehood (God’s existence), but because he also thought it promoted weakness, that it was ugly, dishonorable, low, and death-affirming rather than life affirming.  He criticized Kantian morality, Enlightenment morality or humanism, because it held to the same morality but had cut it off from its source so now not only was it still ugly and death-affirming, it was hollow and no longer believable because it had killed the God who gave it its peculiar and unique character, one that had completely defeated and swallowed up the pagan ethics of antiquity.
So given, he thought, that the west simply goes on, smiley like giddy idiots, even though there is no longer any basis for their morality, given it is simply a cover for saying, “I want or like this,” what do we do now?  And his answer is a morality of “higher” and “lower” of the stronger over the weaker, the honorable over the dishonorable, but it is based purely, not in a universal reason, or a god, but in a sensibility or “taste” thus arbitrary, subjective, and purely an assertion of will.
Now, as to power.  What is spoken here is of a strong or weaker form of the argument and whether one has a realist or anti-realist understanding of the will to power.  Of the strong realist form, we are told:
“…the view at issue presupposes an unusually strong doctrine of the will to power: a doctrine, to the effect, that all life (actions, events) reflects the will to power. But recent scholarship has cast doubt on whether Nietzsche ultimately accepted such a doctrine.” -Stanford
So what, then, is a proper understanding according to the Stanford source?
“What, then, does Nietzsche believe about will to power? As others have noted (e.g., Clark 1990: 209-212), Nietzsche’s doctrine of will to power in its original deployment and most of its later development is psychological in character: the will to power is posited as the best psychological explanation for a wide variety of human behaviors.”
What this means is that Nietzsche isn’t asserting a “will-to-power” as a positive, realist, universal objective criteria that is out there somewhere that explains everyone’s actions.  If he were, it would undercut his anti-realist and subjective views to begin with.  So the above only speaks to a realist (objective) reading of “will-to-power” which is clear from further reading:
“There is an additional, textual worry for the argument that will to power provides an objective criterion of value lurking here as well.”
So the Stanford source is not saying there isn’t a “will-to-power” in Nietzsche, but that it isn’t a realist objective criterion of value, outside his subjective psychology.  So how should we view Nietzsche’s understanding of power?  As anti-realist (all morality is subjective).
“If Nietzsche is not a realist about value, then he must be an anti-realist: he must deny that there is any objective fact of the matter that would privilege his evaluative perspective over its target. (This, in fact, is the most familiar reading outside the secondary literature on Nietzsche; one finds this view of Nietzsche’s metaethics, for example, in the sociologist Max Weber and the moral philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre, among many others.)”
And, as far as I can tell, this is Bernard’s view as well—although if one is agnostic, how can he “deny” there is any objectivity to morality?  Isn’t the correct answer if one is agnostic, to reply: “I don’t know.”  That little problem, has yet to be answered.  Anyway, from the Stanford source, it is only the strong realist argument regarding what “will-to-power” means that is criticized, not the weaker, anti-realist form.  Thus, this still leaves intact the view that words like “flourish” “good” “evil” “progressive” “higher” “lower” and the like are meaningless beyond saying something like, “I am emoting this way right now.”  They are like checking the weather and then reporting on it in terms of pure physical measurement.  Nothing more is being said.  Thus, the “power” issue speaks especially to areas of conflict.  If we have two people reporting what the psychological weather in their head is like and it’s leading them to do “thus” and the other person reports the weather inside his head, leading him to do the contrary, what now?  If there is nothing outside the weather reports in either’s head they can appeal to, then power is the only option left as a solution if there is a conflict.
Even if this sort of power does not come into play, say one side, for whatever reason (the weather in their head changed) changes their mind, and they concede to the other person’s will, there is nothing that has happened here except an event, movement, matter-in-motion.  Thus, “power” is still the absence of direction and telos; it is movement, it is something that happens, it is pure decision and this out of a determined, purely natural, world and environment.  The “winners” the “great” men get to label the happening, the choice, the decision, as “good” or “evil” and such is what it then becomes, even if the next day they reversed the labels.  How is this not all about power?
Unless one can point to something else, it reduces to power or movement alone.  So there are two aspects to “power” being noted here.  The power in relation to conflict and the use of violence and power in relation to an absence of moral description, so that all is ultimately only movement, matter-in-motion, event, change, flux, and so forth, thus description is only like noting the weather or physiological changes in our bodies.  I don’t know of any source or interpreter of Nietzsche who doesn’t think there is where letting go of an objective basis for morality leads (it is entirely logical), and where Nietzsche thought it led too.  So, if the word “power” bothers you or that is some sticking point, one is missing the point.  The point is that without an objective referent, one is just reporting his inner psychological weather or noting an event, movement, motion, change, or happening.  Thus the “power” aspect in this relation should be thought of as “power” in physics and the laws of motion.  It is like the “power” of a feather falling from a roof.  We don’t note such to be good, bad, or indifferent, we simply report what happened: A feather fell from the roof.  With no objective referent, all is power in this sense along with the obvious meaning of power in relation to conflict and opposing parties.

Again, from IEP source, there is further explication of the idea of “power” as used here:

“From within the logic of will to power, narrowly construed, human meaning is thus affirmed. “But to what end?” one might ask. To no end, Nietzsche would answer. Here, the more circumspect view could be taken, as is found in Twilight of the Idol’s “The Four Great Errors”: “One is a piece of fate, one belongs to the whole, one is in the whole, there exist nothing which could judge, measure, compare, condemn our being, for that would be to judge, measure, compare, condemn the whole….But nothing exists apart from the whole!” Nietzsche conceptualizes human fate, then, in his most extreme vision of will to power, as being fitted to a whole, “the world,” which is itself “nothing besides” a “monster of energy, without beginning, without end…eternally changing and eternally flooding back with tremendous years of recurrence.” In such manner, will to power expresses itself not only through the embodiment of humanity, its exemplars, and the constant revaluation of values, but also in time. Dasein, for Nietzsche, is suspended on the cross between these ontological movements—between an in/different playing of destruction/creation—and time.”
Clearly then, meaning disappears and each metaphor we use is simply a poetic way to speak of movement, change, flux and nothing else.  Thus, movement, whether peaceful, like a stream flowing, or movement like a Holocaust, are the same—power, movement, change, signifying nothing greater—indeed there is no “great” nor “low” nor “high” or any other type of difference.  Difference disappears.
Now, what is the difference between this scenario and a conflict between two people who believe in an objective morality?  First of all, if the morality is basically the same, then each side can feel that no matter what happens, it wasn’t just one person’s will or power over the other that decided the issue.  In other words, a poor person in a dispute with a wealthier person could feel equal and that he was not going to lose simply because the other person had more money (power).  Or, as already noted by my civil rights movement example here in America and the Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr.
Second, if the morality is different, then the dialogue can be toward the opposing moralities, their sources, and not the persons themselves, as persons.  Rather than opposing people or attacking people personally, they can direct their arguments at the moralities, at the arguments, at the source of the morality, the lines of thought and their support—the overall narrative.  Otherwise, we are left with opposing the weather reports inside the heads of each other and that can only be seen as a personal attack (because it is).  We are left with accusing the other person of either being mentally impaired, illogical/irrational, or of having invalid feelings or emotions and thus we are entitled to use violence against them.  Wow.
Now, what happens when two parties who believe in an objective morality (say, for instance, the Taliban and the U.S.) cannot come to an agreement regarding something?  One would assume, in the absence of peaceful dialogue and negotiation, after everything has been exhausted, violence may ensue.  Does believing in an objective morality mean violence never happens?  Of course not, and no one claims such—that doesn’t even follow.  Violence is possible whether one believes in an objective morality or a subjective morality—it’s irrelevant to the discussion—no one is arguing otherwise (We can put aside an argument for pacifism for now).  The huge, and glaring, difference however, between violence used in such a situation and where it is arbitrary, or as a bully would use it, just to get his way, or because he can, he is more powerful, is that in one case, there is a greater principle or objective referent appealed to, rather, than in the opposing case, the two sides are simply pointing toward their inner personal subjective weather reports that happen to vary at the moment. In this scenario, we have people threatening violence because the other person does not emote or “feel” or think the way the other does.  I can’t imagine a more unreliable, unreasonable, irrational, irresponsible, or immoral reason to justify using violence.  It is the rational of the bully.
An additional element here is that no rational, reasonable, person uses violence against another person simply because that person did not agree with or go along with the other person’s “tastes” or personal preferences.  People and states do not use proactive violence to force their personal opinions, tastes, or preferences upon others (unless of course, that is what one, like Nietzsche, thinks is really always going on).  Are we all bullies?  If one is making the case for us all to be bullies or that such is what is really going on, regardless the metaphorical poetic cover language we are using, then Nietzsche agrees with you and please just come out and say so.
Also, we are talking about cultures and civilizations, not just our personal lives or one person.  Whatever argument one makes, it must be applicable to an entire culture.  No one cares about personal anecdotes in such a conversation.  No one cares if one person, somewhere, would not force, by violence, his personal subjective “tastes” upon others and also happens to believe all morality is just “taste” (after growing up, of course, in a Christian culture!).  Well, good for you.  However, if a state imposes, whether a democracy or otherwise, its collective “tastes” and collective preferences upon others by force and violence, appealing to nothing more than, “This is what we want and we are more powerful than you”, then we are left with power only.  Unless one can point to something objective, to something else other than power, then we are only talking about power.  I don’t see any way around this.  And no one has proposed a way around it either.
So I’m not sure how one cannot see this difference, in principle, even if one does believe that everything does really boil down to “taste” or personal subjective preference.  In other words, he should be able to say, “Yes, if there truly is an objective referent, then such (what I outline above) is what’s happening.”  So, it doesn’t take a belief in an objective morality to see this obvious logical difference, regardless of who is ultimately correct.  Further, it has real world and practical implications as well.
One final point as to Nietzsche.  There is something very telling, very revealing, about the argument Nietzsche makes and, in fact, anyone who makes his argument regarding anti-realism and morality just being “taste” or subjective personal preference.  It is almost disingenuous.  Or, it marks some need to be heard or recognize, but in a passive way, as one is saying at the same time, “None of this matters.”  But they say it passionately, publicly, will argue about it, and say it over and over.  Do they protest too much?  The Stanford source picks up on this as well:
“There remains a final interpretive difficulty: for Nietzsche simply does not write like someone who thinks his evaluative judgments are merely his idiosyncratic preferences! On the metaethical position elaborated here, it seems Nietzsche must believe that if, in response to his point that “morality were to blame if the highest power and splendor actually possible to the type man was never in fact attained” (GM Pref:6), someone were to say, “So much the better for morality!”, there would be nothing further to say to that person: at the best, Nietzsche might turn his back and say, “Oh well — doesn’t share my evaluative tastes.” Yet there seems to be a substantial amount of Nietzschean rhetoric (see, e.g., BGE 259; TI V:6 & IX:35; EH IV:4, 7, 8) that cannot be reconciled with this metaethical view, and which cries out instead for some sort of realist construal…”
My own theory here is that no one, deep down, truly believes their desire to see justice and fairness, to see their family and children treated well, their aversion to torture or seeing someone suffer and it moving them to help, to be “merely…idiosyncratic preferences.”  I think they are stuck.  On one hand, they can’t bring themselves to believe or affirm the existence of God/spirit/transcendence and they know what this means as to morality and ethics.  But on the other hand, they know what they feel and recognize within themselves, as to ethics, things they fight for, are passionate about, and might even cause them to use violence, cannot be reduced to something like, “Well, I just prefer vanilla ice cream—it’s my favorite.”  However, their presuppositions, their worldviews, prevent them from saying their passion for justice, for people to be treated with kindness (which I truly believe they have), is anything more than saying, “I like kittens.”  By the way: how deep and well thought out a justification—especially after living in a culture that teaches one to like kittens (or follow the Ten Commandments).  Anyway, I think there is a cognitive dissonance for such a person (one would think anyway, hope?) and many have wondered if this dissonance was finally too much for Nietzsche and played a part in his decent into madness.
To conclude, I would say that any narrative or view of the world, that cannot categorically, without reserve or hesitation, say that torture, rape, the Holocaust, slavery, murder, genocide, and other such categories, to be entirely evil (meaning for everyone, for all times and places,) to be a false, ugly, dangerous, and an utterly destructive and degrading narrative or view.  It is the very opposite of tolerant or thoughtful.  In my estimation, it is here where we can decide whether a narrative is true or false, beautiful or ugly, redemptive or un-redemptive.  And anyone who would reduce their objections to those categories (to say that they too are against those things “me too”) but place their objection as on the same plane or category of their not liking sushi or vanilla ice-cream is …well, beyond belief really as to the cluelessness and insensitivity. To reduce them to such is to offend and bring down every torture victim, every rape victim, and every genocide victim.  It boggles the mind really.
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43 Responses to Final Postscript (we hope) on Nietzsche

  1. Hi Darrell

    You've put a lot of time and thought into this entry. Thank you for that, it's most interesting.

    Here are two differences in our reading of this source. Will to power is offered as a psychological model, explaining why we behave the way we do. If this is what Nietzsche intended, then his is a testable model, broadly speaking, and one that I think would be found wanting in terms of modern psychology.

    A related difference is the way you then reinterpret this psychological model as if it is some sort of inevitable fact of the world when objective values are removed. You see a significant difference between two people fighting because each yearns for the world to be a certain way, and two people fighting because they believe they are right the other is wrong.

    In doing this, you put the rationale of the Taliban (your example) on a higher or more noble plane than that, say, of an environmentalist fighting to clean the waterways, because they personally wish to leave the world habitable for their grandchildren.

    You describe somebody acting in this way, following their path to personal fulfillment, as the actions of the bully.

    I just don't see this difference. Sometimes the objective believer behaves like the bully, sometimes the subjectivist behaves with gentle and considerate grace. The reverse is also true.

    If this is true, then power is equally in play under either scenario. To argue that the will to power (so defined) comes into play when the objective reference fades, is therefore false, is it not?

    Power comes into play whenever there is genuine disagreement, and this appears to happen under either model.

    Bernard

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  2. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “Power comes into play whenever there is genuine disagreement, and this appears to happen under either model.”

    Did you read the post? Of course it does, no one argues otherwise. What you completely leave unaddressed is the justification behind the violence, if such has to come into play. You are left with using violence just because the other person doesn't emote the way you do or share the same taste. Address the issue of violence. Further, you leave out the other aspect to power I noted. In fact, you leave the substance of my post unaddressed.

    “You see a significant difference between two people fighting because each yearns for the world to be a certain way, and two people fighting because they believe they are right the other is wrong.”

    This makes no sense to me. If two people “yearn” for the world to be a certain way, then normally that means they believe it is “right” to do so rather than “wrong”, thus the “yearning”. Should we “yearn” to do wrong or evil? And based upon your view, how do we know if our “yearning” is good and the other person's evil?

    “In doing this, you put the rationale of the Taliban (your example) on a higher or more noble plane than that, say, of an environmentalist fighting to clean the waterways, because they personally wish to leave the world habitable for their grandchildren.”

    What? Again, did you read the post? Where are you getting this? Further, it is your view that has no higher or lower. Are you kidding? I have no idea how you can make the above statement. A clear misunderstanding on your part.

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  3. Hi Darrell

    I do honesty believe it is worthwhile for you, as a Christian, to try to imagine your way into the non-believer's world. We do yearn, we seek to be all we can as humans, we build our personal values about our sense of our own humanity, and an active exploration of our potential to feel truly fulfilled. Just like you do.

    Yes, you can respond with 'but really, this all just comes down to a description of your emotional state', the implication being that in some sense this should make it less valuable for us. Yet this is a purely rhetorical device, as empty and offensive as if the non-theist should say of your values 'but ultimately they are meaningless, for all they come down to is the arbitrary wishes of deity over which you have no control. At least my values are chosen by me. That makes them so much more meaningful.'

    Both cases are silly, for they begin by helping oneself to a definition of the word meaningful that turns the argument into a pure tautology. This is the politics of division, and is ever so unhelpful.

    Theists and no-theists alike pursue values that they believe deeply in, and which are profoundly meaningful to them, values worth dying for in some cases. We are not so different, in the end. Why fight that obvious, and profoundly helpful, truth?

    Bernard

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  4. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “I do honesty believe it is worthwhile for you, as a Christian, to try to imagine your way into the non-believer's world. We do yearn…”

    I've never said otherwise. Unfortunately, you can’t tell us why we yearn (it may be God, it may be culture/psychology—you don’t know, right?) or whether what you yearn for is moral or not. The Taliban “yearns” too. Is their yearning less valuable than yours? It is really you Bernard, who need to imagine the world for a moment from the Christian's perspective.

    “Yes, you can respond with 'but really, this all just comes down to a description of your emotional state', the implication being that in some sense this should make it less valuable for us.”

    You misread. I am following your logic—your argument. It isn't my argument. You have told us that such is all it is. Are you willing, or should a state be willing, to use violence because the other person’s emotional state is different than yours or less valuable? Or has a different taste?

    You still leave the substance of my post unaddressed. I think it might help if you actually engaged the substance, the logic, instead of what you think might be being said. For instance you clearly didn't understand my point regarding the Taliban and the US. Further, when you write: “In doing this, you put the rationale of the Taliban (your example) on a higher or more noble plane than that, say, of an environmentalist fighting…” you forget that your view doesn't allow for a “higher” or “more” noble category. There are only differing emotional states. It is your view that puts the Taliban and environmentalist on the same plane. I am confronting you with the logic of your own position. That is what you need to address.

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  5. Hi Darrell

    Oh well, perhaps some caution in the language we use then. It might be a good start to stop asserting that in the non-theistic world view, all is of equal value. The difference regards what the value references (my preferences, or my assessment of God's preference) not whether value exists.

    In either case, we will meet people with different values, and will have to decide what to do about that (tolerate, negotiate, oppose). And in each case, we will be working on our own personal response, be that a personal assessment of what God wants, or a personal assessment of what we want.

    The differences seem to me to be relatively unimportant. We all yearn, we all value, we all seek to understand, to resolve difference, we all fund beauty and purpose. It is only the framing of these questions that differs.

    Wishing you and yours a happy and holy Christmas. Thanks for all your thoughtful engagement. Most appreciated.

    Bernard

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  6. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “It might be a good start to stop asserting that in the non-theistic world view, all is of equal value.”

    I’m not asserting that—I think you are. How would you justify saying the reporting of your emotional status at the moment, regarding your personal preferences, and how you “felt”, was of higher or lower value than someone else’s? Again, I don’t think you see that I’m teasing out the logical implications of your own view (a logic that Nietzsche agreed with). If you think such is incorrect, you should address why you think so, but to keep concluding that such is what I believe or am asserting is to miss the point.

    “The difference regards what the value references (my preferences, or my assessment of God's preference) not whether value exists.”

    You are confusing the fact we all subjectively choose, we all make decisions, we all assess, with the idea that what we ultimately choose, is still only a reflection of our personal preferences and that such is what makes those choices valuable. The value doesn't reside in my assessing of God’s preferences, because I may not personally value what God prefers (love). The value, if it exists, must be determined by an objective referent, otherwise, I am just reporting my internal, subjective, emotional weather information regarding what I like and want and why should I suppose that such carries value, when the other person’s report is contrary to mine? If value exists, as you say, how is that determined? In what you personally prefer? Why is your personal preference more valuable than someone else’s?

    I’m not saying that my personal assessment of God’s preferences is valuable because of my assessment. I’m saying, against my personal preferences at times, I've found God’s life in Christ, as he lived it, to be valuable. That is something outside my head, outside my experience, and even runs counter to it at times. It is objective. If I say I think the Sermon on the Mount tells us valuable things, a person knows I’m not asking them to assess my personal thoughts about it, but the actual sermon. That is not the same as telling someone, “I prefer red wine to white—that is just my taste.” All you have done here is transmit personal information about yourself. It may be of value, if the question at hand was, “What sort of wine should we serve him?”, but it carries no value in any other serious sense.

    But clearly, we just disagree here. Imagine that, an agnostic and Christian disagreeing!

    I too wish you and yours a very holy and merry Christmas.

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  7. Hi Darrell

    Yes, quite right. I do say something is valuable to me. This is entirely subjective, and is exactly what I mean by valuable.

    I do believe it's worth dialing down the rhetoric on this issue. For example, you finish your post here with:

    “And anyone who would reduce their objections to those categories (to say that they too are against those things “me too”) but place their objection as on the same plane or category of their not liking sushi or vanilla ice-cream is …well, beyond belief really as to the cluelessness and insensitivity. To reduce them to such is to offend and bring down every torture victim, every rape victim, and every genocide victim.”

    This seems to be one of three points you would wish to make with regard to a subjective view of morality. I would summarise them thus:

    – To see things in terms of individual preference is to reduce clearly important issues (murder) to the level of the trivial (ice cream).

    – If we take away the objective referent, then terms like hope, desire, beauty or fulfillment lose their meaning.

    – If all is simply preference, then moral issues reduce necessarily to issues of power.

    The reason I would preach caution in terms of the rhetoric, is that I'm not convinced any of these three points stand. If they don't, rhetoric becomes a device by which we erect artificial barriers between world views. And I'm not sure why we'd want to do this.

    Very briefly, my puzzlement with the three claims works like this: On the first, the fact that both are preferences hardly reduces them to the same level (any more than the fact that both involves humans, or both are being described using the English language puts them on a par). My preference for an ice cream flavour is trivial to me, I barely value it at all, and would never consider inconveniencing, let alone harming, another to assert it. My preference to live in a world bereft of violence gets to the very heart of what I value, how I wish to live, and what I am prepared to struggle for. Both preferences, yes. On the same level? For me, nowhere close.

    On the second point, our language fair drips with subjective terms. It is clearly wrong to say words like lonely, scared, tired or red have no meaning. They all, very meaningfully, describe an internal state which others, when they hear it described, recognise a version of in themselves. Language is contextual, referential and subjective, but hardly devoid of meaning.

    And on the last, it seems clear to me that we all must negotiate, tolerate and oppose in various measures, whether or not we seek personal fulfillment or fidelity to an objective ideal. Power is equally in play under either world view.

    This is not to say their are no differences. Motivation clearly differs. I am motivated by my subjective perception of the kind of world I value, you by your subjective assessment of what moral truths look like. But, given all the tremendous similarities, does this puny difference really deserve the rhetoric being thrown at it? Is this all there was to the deep truth Nietzche was apparently able to confront? Sufficient to send the poor man mad? I'm sceptical.

    We're not so different in our beliefs, you and I. Why not, in this festive season, raise a glass to our common humanity? I shall.

    Best

    Bernard

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  8. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “Yes, quite right. I do say something is valuable to me. This is entirely subjective, and is exactly what I mean by valuable.”

    But why does your subjective take make it valuable? Maybe it isn't valuable. How do you know? How do you know the other person’s, whose subjective take is completely different than yours, is less valuable? Is your subjective take on everything valuable or only some things? Why one thing and not the other?

    You are using language that does not fit the context of what is being discussed. No one talks of being against murder, rape, torture, or genocide as if it were merely a preference or matter of taste. The fact that in your own mind, you have created different levels of value (higher and lower) for a preference like vanilla ice cream and another level for torture, doesn't add value to the two, it only is a report of what you “feel” about them. You are still unable to see you have left them on the same level ontologically, in principle, as preferences and matters of taste, in themselves. That is entirely unacceptable. And my “rhetoric” goes to that unacceptability. Further, why are your different levels of value the right ones or moral ones? You've said you have no way of knowing—in fact that physics prevents us from knowing. So how can you then justify the use of violence if others subjectively value the opposite things you do? Who in their right mind says, “I have no idea if my preferences are the correct or moral ones or if this other persons are, but we differ, and I know what I feel, so I will now destroy them.” Please tell us who does that. There is no culture or civilization that reasons this way—you are describing something that doesn't exist.

    “On the second point, our language fair drips with subjective terms. It is clearly wrong to say words like lonely, scared, tired or red have no meaning.”

    Notice what you are doing. You are using words that are descriptive in the sense of what is, not what “ought” to be. No one has said such words are not meaningful in some context as descriptions of what is. However, words like “better” “valuable” “flourish” “good” and “evil” have meaning in reference to something outside our own heads and emotions, our own personal definitions, which is why we are able to communicate and able to understand the gravity of those words. They represent ideals, not just descriptions of what is. Most people believe murder to be immoral and would think it immoral even if it were suddenly legal (at least after 2000 years of living within a narrative that tells us such, anyway). What you leave unaddressed is the fact that if you subjectively value the word “higher” to mean a world where murder is not preferred, while another person subjectively values that word to mean the opposite, then in such a world the term “higher” because meaningless beyond describing one’s mental and emotional status/preference at the moment. There is simply no way around this logic. Why is your personal opinion about something more valuable than the other’s?
    (Continued)

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  9. Darrell says:

    (Continued)

    “And on the last, it seems clear to me that we all must negotiate, tolerate and oppose in various measures, whether or not we seek personal fulfillment or fidelity to an objective ideal. Power is equally in play under either world view.”

    I've already addressed this in the post as to power being in play, if violence becomes the last resort, for all. What you leave unaddressed are the implications and the justifications of using power or violence when there are differences. Differences over personal taste and personal subjective opinions can never justify the use of violence.

    “We're not so different in our beliefs, you and I. Why not, in this festive season, raise a glass to our common humanity? I shall.”

    We are very different in our beliefs; however, I agree, we are not different in what we value. And we can think the Judeo-Christian narrative for that (anyway, I believe we can). You have come up encompassed by that narrative (the reason for this “festive” season) and thus we value many of the same things. But, even if we did not, I believe you are made in the image of God like all people and can thus always raise a glass to that commonality—we are all God’s children. We are brothers and sisters. I will most certainly raise a glass to that and to you.

    Cheers.

    Like

  10. Cheers Darrell.

    You ask, what makes me think a thing that is valuable to me is any more valuable than something valued by another? I don't think that at all. I simply think this thing is of value to me. That's all.

    Now, for you it is entirely unacceptable to even suggest that ontologically speaking, our values come from within. Unacceptable to you, or unacceptable in principle, I wonder? It would be very hard to establish the latter.

    You ask: – Who in their right mind says, “I have no idea if my preferences are the correct or moral ones or if this other persons are, but we differ, and I know what I feel, so I will now destroy them.”

    Well, apart from the rhetorical device in play here (who says I want to destroy anybody?) you are no less susceptible to this accusation than I am. After all, you have no idea if your preference for Christianity over Islam is correct, and sadly the occasional nutter in the past has used this difference as grounds for destruction.

    Bernard

    Like

  11. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “You ask, what makes me think a thing that is valuable to me is any more valuable than something valued by another? I don't think that at all. I simply think this thing is of value to me. That's all.”

    Then your hierarchy of value, between preferences, has no meaning or measurement. How can you justify using violence then if the thing you think so valuable is only valuable to you? If it’s only valuable to you, why impose it on another?

    “Now, for you it is entirely unacceptable to even suggest that ontologically speaking, our values come from within. Unacceptable to you, or unacceptable in principle, I wonder? It would be very hard to establish the latter.”

    Unacceptable in principle. In fact, we have devised an entire way of using and understanding language, in context, so that people will know it is unacceptable. We use the words preference and taste to talk about entirely trivial matters, of no import whatsoever, and we use words like “good” and “evil” to talk about matters we think should weigh on everyone equally, regardless. The reason they “weigh” differently is because we understand them to mean different things.

    “Well, apart from the rhetorical device in play here (who says I want to destroy anybody?)…”

    It is not rhetorical at all. It goes to the very area discussed in the post but that you have failed to address and that is the justification of the use of violence when all other avenues have failed.

    “…you are no less susceptible to this accusation than I am.”

    Again, I guess I will just keep repeating myself, but this was addressed in the post. Yes, violence may be resorted to regardless of whether one believes in an objective morality or not, but you still haven’t addressed the difference in justification. This is a red herring argument. Completely misses the point.

    We could keep repeating ourselves here or we could wish either other the best…your choice.

    Like

  12. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    Maybe this will help:

    “You ask, what makes me think a thing that is valuable to me is any more valuable than something valued by another? I don't think that at all. I simply think this thing is of value to me. That's all.”

    The only way we know something to be of value is to know the opposite, that which is without value. If you cannot say that the opposite of what you value is value-less, then it is a meaningless word. If you consider one thing to be of value, but not its exact opposite to be without value, then the word has no meaning–because it can mean anything all at once.

    Like

  13. Hi Darrell

    A thing is of no value to me if i do not value it. That's not a tricky proposition.

    You say to put abhorrence on the same ontological level as mild distaste for is in principle unacceptable. Good luck establishing that principle. The floor is yours.

    If you accept we might all resort to power plays to assert our personal beliefs, then your 'who in their right mind…' statement apparently includes us all. Do you mean to imply we are all of us out of our minds?

    If we dig beneath the rhetoric, your challenge is to establish that there is a substantive difference between these two views. Yes, of course the motivations are different, but is this we are discussing?

    Not unacceptable, unless you can show why. Not more prone to power plays, not more about pushing one's personal beliefs over those of others. Identical in all these ways. Just with different referents. That seems such a trivial difference to me. Certainly not one capable of carrying the rhetorical weight you offer it.

    Bernard

    Like

  14. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “A thing is of no value to me if i do not value it. That's not a tricky proposition.”

    You are not addressing the point. If this thing that you do not value is valued by someone else, then, logically, you must say what they value is not valuable. If you say, it is just not valuable to you and it is okay if someone else finds it valuable, such is fine if we are talking about hiking. But if we are talking about genocide, that is acceptable. This is the glaring problem you keep skipping over.

    “You say to put abhorrence on the same ontological level as mild distaste for is in principle unacceptable. Good luck establishing that principle. The floor is yours.”

    It’s already established. No problem. We have an entire language and context wherein no one talks of abhorring torture as a personal taste or preference. We instead use the word “evil” and we are able to communicate and understand the difference. You could say, “But what is really going on when we use those words is…” which is what Nietzsche said, but that is the very thing disputed. Until proven otherwise, people understand the difference between a personal preference and a moral truth. As the minority held view, the burden is on you to tell us why we should understand a moral truth to be a personal preference or taste.

    “If you accept we might all resort to power plays to assert our personal beliefs…”

    I don’t accept that. You are not listening. You are the one who accepts this. You are saying these are all just personal subjective beliefs. I am saying, no, there is an objective referent that may go against my personal preferences. Violence is unacceptable if simply based upon the fact that your personal subjective preferences or tastes are not being followed or accepted. My post addressed all this as to the difference and you have yet to speak to what I wrote in the post. You are just repeating, as usual, things already addressed. Instead of responding, you just repeat yourself.

    “Identical in all these ways. Just with different referents. That seems such a trivial difference to me.”

    It is not trivial in the least. It is the difference between the lynch mob and the rule of law. If you think it trivial, then all the books, lectures, classes, all the differences between what we think of dictatorships and democracies, have meant nothing. If it is trivial then much blood has been shed for nothing for power's sake alone. It would appear you've given little thought to this.

    There is nothing new being offered here in your responses. Again, all the best, and Merry Christmas.

    Like

  15. Darrell says:

    Sorry, I meant “unacceptable”

    But if we are talking about genocide, that is “unacceptable”. This is the glaring problem you keep skipping over.

    Like

  16. Hi Darrell

    All the best for your Christmas break. Should this be a conversation you wish to return to after it, there are a few matters unresolved.

    I understand your assertion that there is something unacceptable about not using the word valuable in an objective sense. But, how would you ground that claim? You offer the fact that most people see value in objective terms, and this may well be true. But here, unless there is more to your case, you are asserting that minority views are, by definition, unacceptable. That's dangerous ground.

    So, how to show that this view of mine is is some sense unacceptable? I leave it you to construct such a case.

    Now, as for power, you say we are not all equally called upon to use power to assert our personal preferences or beliefs. Perhaps you could provide a single example where I might be called upon to assert my power whereas you, because of your believe in an objectivity morality, would not. For me, this is the crux. Power is always in play. The idea that the loss of objective referents leads to a power play doesn't seem to follow (or at least not for those who understand that different people will have different views of what constitutes the objective truth). An example would be clarifying; it's a good way of sorting rhetoric from substantive case.

    And again, you are leaning far too heavily upon rhetoric. The lynch mob versus the rule of law. Nonsense. Many a lynch mob has been led by those who believed their actions were morally right and many a legal framework has been hammered out by those seeking nothing more transcendent than a shared vision of a stable society. What you need to do, to justify such heightened language, is to give an example of a situation where the believer and non-believer would necessarily behave differently. If the behaviour is identical, then all this talk of murder, lynching and blood surely over-reaches.

    Where is the difference, if not in power, or acceptability? Can you establish either?

    Bernard

    Like

  17. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “But here, unless there is more to your case, you are asserting that minority views are, by definition, unacceptable. That's dangerous ground.”

    I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying is that you, as holding a rather radical and minority position, have the burden of telling us why such a position should be the majority position. The minority view always has the burden.

    “So, how to show that this view of mine is is some sense unacceptable? I leave it you to construct such a case.”

    The case has been made; I've written several posts and responded extensively. You disagree; but a case has been made and it is the established case. The difference between a personal preference, taste, and a moral category is reflected in our language, culture, law, and, indeed, in every area of life and communication. The burden, therefore, is on you to tell us why it is acceptable—why we have it wrong. You say something is valuable to you personally. Another person says the exact opposite is valuable to them. If you cannot then say that what they value is wrong, or not valuable, then the word has no meaning (I can only know what lonely means by knowing its opposite, a feeling of community or another’s presence—if you have your own definition of lonely—then we cannot share it as a community or understand the other person in a way that is different than just saying, “I value vanilla over chocolate.”) and you can hardly make a case for violence if it’s just a difference of opinion on something that can be valuable for some but not others. Again, you would not use violence against someone just because they valued red wine over white. It is never appropriate to use violence over personal differences of opinion, taste, or preference. You are telling us it is, true? The burden is on you. And you can’t simply beg the question and tell us, like Nietzsche, that such is the case because that is all moral categories truly are, just our personal and collective preferences writ large. That is the very issue disputed. Against my position, the only way you could say that such is what they really are, would be because you knew God did not exist or that Jesus was not divine and there we know you are agnostic—you don’t know. So there must be some other argument you have.

    “Now, as for power, you say we are not all equally called upon to use power to assert our personal preferences or beliefs…”

    I have no idea what that even means. I've had to ask this several times; would it be too much trouble for you to actually quote what I’ve written you are addressing? Your attempts to summarize are not always helpful and tends to confuse things. It is much easier to follow a conversation, and have one, when we know exactly what the other is responding to or asking about. Thanks.

    I too hope you had a wonderful Christmas and wish you a happy new year.

    Like

  18. Hi Darrell

    I'm finding it difficult to follow your acceptability argument. You appear to be arguing that because a great many people in history have thought of value this way, then it is unacceptable to think of value in some other way. Is this all your case consists of?

    You suggest the word valuable can only have meaning if one can assert that the opposite is not valuable. Well, this is simply answered. I use valuable to mean 'valuable to me' and hence if somebody else finds a different thing valuable, then I can say this is 'not valuable to me', the opposite you require in order for a term to be meaningful.

    And finally you assert “It is never appropriate to use violence over personal differences of opinion, taste, or preference. You are telling us it is, true? “

    Well, I don't know what you mean by appropriate. Would I use violence to assert my personal preference? Sure I would. I would willingly fight off a person who attacked my child, for example, because it is my very great desire to protect my children from violence. So, to me, that is perfectly appropriate, it is entirely consistent with my values and desires. Is it appropriate in a global sense? I don't know. I don't know how one could get information about globally relevant edicts of this kind.

    And by the way, I don't know if our moral judgements are just personal preferences writ large. Hence I don't make that case. I do suggest we know of no reliable way by which we could access objective moral knowledge, however, but that leads to the discussion you do not wish to have on this site, which is your prerogative.

    Bernard

    Like

  19. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “I use valuable to mean 'valuable to me' and hence if somebody else finds a different thing valuable, then I can say this is 'not valuable to me', the opposite you require in order for a term to be meaningful.”

    But it is valuable to the other person. That is not the opposite. It is an assertion that what the other person values should not be valued. Otherwise, you are imposing your ‘what is valuable to me’ upon the other person. The only thing operable there is power then. You are simply appealing to what you want, what you think is valuable, even if the other person thinks it to not be valuable. That is not an acceptable justification for the use of violence.

    Thus, you are still left with power only and no justification for the use of violence beyond the assertion that what you think valuable is disagreed with, even though you admit it is not expected that everyone value that same thing, to begin with. If not everyone should value that same thing, then it is a personal preference, a subjective taste, an opinion. And yet, you feel violence is justified if that person disagrees with you. The only principle operative here then is pure will and power, which leads us back to Nietzsche.

    Finally, you could clear this all up for us as to your amazing and unique claim regarding physics and morality by simply explaining it to us in a post on your blog, but that is your prerogative.

    Cheers.

    Like

  20. Hi Darrell

    There are two distinct issues here; let's not confuse them. First, can the word valuable be meaningfully employed when only applying to a subjective assessment? Second, can we establish that such a use of values is in some sense unacceptable?

    As to the first, there is no problem. I can speak of a thing being valuable to me, and that is a meaningful sentence. Everybody knows what I intend by it. So the claim against meaning is an empty one.

    More important is your assessment that thinking in this way is unacceptable. I'm entirely unclear why you think it unacceptable, apart from your repeated claims that it just is.

    Examples often keep things well focussed, so let's stick with the one I've used. I see a person about to hurt my child. I intervene, using the force necessary to restrain the assailant. You seem to be claiming that my action is acceptable if I believe the attack is morally wrong in an objective sense, but that my actions are unacceptable if my only motive is my very great desire to see my child unharmed.

    Why, if I am motived by the desire to protect my child, is my behaviour unacceptable? This seems to be your claim, and I can't see where it would come from. Do you mean unacceptable to society (in which case I think you're wrong, society would by in large be quite happy with me defending my child, even if their safety was my only moral concern), or unacceptable in an objective way?

    If you think it is objectively unacceptable to launch such a defence, how could you establish this is the case? I'm puzzled by that it is you are trying to do here.

    Bernard

    Like

  21. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “There are two distinct issues here; let's not confuse them. First, can the word valuable be meaningfully employed when only applying to a subjective assessment?”

    Yes, if we are talking about golfing, or surfing, something entirely without ethical or moral import.

    “Second, can we establish that such a use of values is in some sense unacceptable?”

    It already has been by every culture now and that has ever existed.

    If we were to see you intervene and stop someone from hurting your child, we would conclude you thought the value you held your child to have should be shared by the person trying to harm your child and since they did not, you were justified in using violence against them.

    Similarly, we would be quite shocked if upon learning that the person buying wine next to you in the wine store did not agree with you regarding which year was the best for some winery, you began hitting him over the head with your wind bottle.

    In the case of the child, there is a moral category we expect others to share the same as we do, or we are justified in using violence against them. In the case of the wine, we understand that violence is not justified when the issue is a difference of personal preference, taste, or opinion. The fact you conflate the two tells us you either don’t understand the definitions of the words, concepts, and context differences, or that you do, and in both cases above violence would be justified.

    I once read of a case where a man beat to death his girlfriend’s two-year-old son for vomiting in his Corvette. He clearly valued the Corvette more than he did the little boy’s life. Given your view, should society view this as unacceptable? Why? Does his valuing the Corvette make it truly more valuable than the boy? If you saw this happening, what right would you have to intervene if he is simply following his valuing choices, just like you expect to be able to follow yours without violence being used against you?

    Finally, it should become clear that if what you value in a moral sense can be the opposite of what someone else values, then the world valuable means nothing in a communal sense. It simply then means, “what I want or like.” It is reduced then not to what we “ought” to value, or what is valuable and not valuable, but to power alone. Thus, I get to say what is valuable even if that means making a car more valuable than a life. If you use the word “lonely” to mean when you are surrounded by people and happy and I use it in its contextual and understood sense, then we can no longer communicate or understand each other. And if a culture were to accept your line of thought here, with no differentiation between moral categories and personal subjective tastes/preferences, then a culture could not communicate or understand each other morally or ethically.
    Again, the burden lies with you as to why a culture should accept your line of thought and changes in definitions and contexts. No culture ever has, or if they've tried, it certainly has never worked.

    Anyway, we clearly disagree here and we are getting close to just repeating ourselves. If you wish to pursue this further, again, perhaps you should post your own blog. You could add it to your physics post, which we all hope to see soon.

    Cheers.

    Like

  22. Hi Darrell

    You clearly believe it is unacceptable for us to even consider viewing moral values in terms of preferences, but your reason does appear to reduce to 'it just is.' I was just interested, as always, in whether there is any sort of reasoning behind the view you're propounding.

    Apparently not, in this case. Fair enough.

    Bernard

    Like

  23. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    I've given you plenty of reasons, ones you mostly either didn't respond to, or in response you simply re-stated the exact questions or assertions over again.

    Still, always interesting and we do look forward to that physics and morality post.

    Cheers.

    Like

  24. Hi Darrell

    Let's be a little careful about what constitutes a reasoned case.

    I absolutely understand that you think in some way seeing values in terms of preferences is unacceptable. I'm puzzled as to why. As best I can tell, there's no case being constructed here.

    To be specific, if I ask, 'in what way is me acting out of a desire to protect my children unacceptable?' you offer the danger that, if we allow our preferences to sanction violent intervention, then what of the desire to attack a person who does not share my preference in wine?

    That's not really a case, is it? After all I have no desire to attack a person who does not share my preference in wine. My preference is for non-violence, except in the case of legitimate defence, a preference my society shares. The wine attack isn't about preferences at all. You, for example, might be prepared to act violently to protect a loved one because you think you have a moral right to do so. If I were to counter, 'but what if you thought you had a moral right to attack somebody whose skin colour you didn't like?' you would think this a ridiculous argument, and rightly so.

    If we are to show why acting from values grounded in preferences is unacceptable, we need surely to construct a case that is about the working of that preference system. Undoubtedly both systems (subjective/objective moralities) can be used to justify behaviours we both find foul, and both can be used to as excuses for brutal power plays. Hence, neither of these can form the basis for the case against one or the other (yet they seem to be your only objection).

    What then is your case against the acceptability of seeking to build value systems based about the individual's personal desires/yearnings/preferences? Is there one, or is it simply that you personally happen to believe it's wrong?

    Bernard

    Like

  25. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    If you wish to continue and want to copy, paste, and quote what I wrote you disagree with or don’t understand and respond to it, please do. Your attempts at summation are not very helpful. Everything you raise here, I addressed in my last response (and the many before). Either address my actual, specific arguments, or move on. My goodness.

    And, again, the burden lies with you to explain why we should change our understanding of preferences/personal taste, and moral categories.

    Like

  26. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    Here it is again (below): You didn't engage my response beyond telling us what you might or might not do personally. No one cares what you would do or not do and no one cares what I might do or not do. Irrelevant.

    We are addressing what a culture, a community, should base their view of morality and ethics upon. Any argument must be a basis for communal law, why we would punish someone or put them in prison, and so on. It has nothing to do with someone saying, “but I would never do that…” Again, who cares? That isn't an argument (and you are concerned about a reasoned case!) Good grief.

    Please copy and paste what it is below you disagree with or don't understand and then respond:

    “If we were to see you intervene and stop someone from hurting your child, we would conclude you thought the value you held your child to have should be shared by the person trying to harm your child and since they did not, you were justified in using violence against them.

    Similarly, we would be quite shocked if upon learning that the person buying wine next to you in the wine store did not agree with you regarding which year was the best for some winery, you began hitting him over the head with your wine bottle.

    In the case of the child, there is a moral category we expect others to share the same as we do, or we are justified in using violence against them. In the case of the wine, we understand that violence is not justified when the issue is a difference of personal preference, taste, or opinion. The fact you conflate the two tells us you either don’t understand the definitions of the words, concepts, and context differences, or that you do, and in both cases above [if the principle is the same] violence would be justified [I guess I have to add, regardless of whether you personally would do so…wow].

    I once read of a case where a man beat to death his girlfriend’s two-year-old son for vomiting in his Corvette. He clearly valued the Corvette more than he did the little boy’s life. Given your view, should society view this as unacceptable? Why? Does his valuing the Corvette make it truly more valuable than the boy? If you saw this happening, what right would you have to intervene if he is simply following his valuing choices, just like you expect to be able to follow yours without violence being used against you?

    Finally, it should become clear that if what you value in a moral sense can be the opposite of what someone else values, then the world valuable means nothing in a communal sense. It simply then means, “what I want or like.” It is reduced then not to what we “ought” to value, or what is valuable and not valuable, but to power alone. Thus, I get to say what is valuable even if that means making a car more valuable than a life. If you use the word “lonely” to mean when you are surrounded by people and happy and I use it in its contextual and understood sense, then we can no longer communicate or understand each other. And if a culture were to accept your line of thought here, with no differentiation between moral categories and personal subjective tastes/preferences, then a culture could not communicate or understand each other morally or ethically.”

    Like

  27. Hi Darrell

    The problem, perhaps, is that you are attempting to translate everything back into the absolutist world of objective morality.

    Here is my question: what makes you think it is unacceptable for a person to value things according to their personal desires? I can find no answer to this question in anything you write.

    I am trying my best to understand what you might mean by your sense of unacceptability. You mention the wine case, but why? What is the point you are trying to get at here? Are you arguing that their are dangers of people doing brutal and patently absurd things because ultimate values are based on preferences? How is this any different than arguing we must not appeal to objective values, because we can conceive of people who believe in objective values doing things we consider brutal and absurd? Obviously that's hardly a case.

    So, you must have some other objection that leads you to the conclusion of unacceptability. You, again, suggest under a preference model all comes down to power. But this is surely word play. After all, I could say that under an objectivist model, all comes down to power (how else are competing moral systems decided between?)

    So, what do you mean when you say it is unacceptable to see moral values in preference terms? And how could establish this? I've no idea what your argument is.

    Bernard

    Like

  28. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “The problem, perhaps, is that you are attempting to translate everything back into the absolutist world of objective morality.”

    Or that you are attempting to translate everything back to a personal world of subjective morality? The burden still lies with you as to why we should view things in such a way.

    “Here is my question: what makes you think it is unacceptable for a person to value things according to their personal desires? I can find no answer to this question in anything you write.”

    I made it very clear. There is nothing wrong with valuing things according to our personal desires as long as those things are of no moral or ethical import, or conversely immoral or unethical import…but I repeat myself…hmmm seems like I do a lot of this…

    It might help you to have an idea of what my argument is by actually quoting my argument and responding to it. You have yet to do that. It is very simple—let’s break it down into pieces so it’s easier for you.

    “If we were to see you intervene and stop someone from hurting your child, we would conclude you thought the value you held your child to have should be shared by the person trying to harm your child and since they did not, you were justified in using violence against them.”

    Tell us why the above is wrong, mistaken, untrue, or whatever the problem you have with it is.

    Like

  29. Hi Darrell

    So, you would think I would be justified in defending my child if, and only if, I held that there was some objective value which the aggressor was trangressing against.

    My question was, in what way would it be unacceptable for me to intervene, in defence of my child, if I did not believe this? In other words, if I intervene only because I wish to keep my child safe, you appear to argue that this would be unacceptable. Now, I am interested in what grounds you might use for dismissing my action in this case as unacceptable?

    The best you've offered is that if we follow our personal preferences, we might also use these as justification for acts you and I find abhorrent (killing for a car, the wine bottle assault etc). We can see this approach doesn't work by considering the similarly abhorrent acts (shooting of French satirists for example)sanctioned by belief in objective moral values.

    So, what is the case against acting only in pursuit of one's own personal or subjective beliefs?

    Bernard

    Like

  30. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “The best you've offered is that if we follow our personal preferences, we might also use these as justification for acts you and I find abhorrent (killing for a car, the wine bottle assault etc). We can see this approach doesn't work by considering the similarly abhorrent acts (shooting of French satirists for example) sanctioned by belief in objective moral values.”

    No, what I've offered, again and again, (but I repeat myself) is the how the justification for the use of violence is different between disputes over personal subjective preferences/tastes/opinions and disputes over moral categories of good and evil.

    In the one case, violence is not justified. In the other, sometimes it is. Again, violence is sometimes used by those who believe morality to be objective or subjective. No one has said otherwise—why you keep bringing it up is beyond me. The question is one of justification in principle, which you still haven’t addressed.

    And you didn't address the point: Why shouldn't we conclude you expected the other person should share the same value you had regarding your son, but you would never expect that if the dispute was over a personal opinion or taste?

    So, let’s try another:

    “I once read of a case where a man beat to death his girlfriend’s two-year-old son for vomiting in his Corvette. He clearly valued the Corvette more than he did the little boy’s life. Given your view, should society view this as unacceptable? Why? Does his not valuing the Corvette make it truly more valuable than the boy? If you saw this happening, what right would you have to intervene if he is simply following his valuing choices, just like you expect to be able to follow yours without violence being used against you?”

    Please address each question in the above.

    Like

  31. Darrell says:

    Sorry, I meant:

    “Does his valuing the Corvette make it truly more valuable than the boy?”

    Like

  32. Darrell says:

    Lest anyone think I exaggerate when I say I am repeating myself, this is from the very post these comments are referring to, which already addressed Bernard's most recent comment regarding the French shooters:

    “Now, what happens when two parties who believe in an objective morality (say, for instance, the Taliban and the U.S.) cannot come to an agreement regarding something? One would assume, in the absence of peaceful dialogue and negotiation, after everything has been exhausted, violence may ensue. Does believing in an objective morality mean violence never happens? Of course not, and no one claims such—that doesn't even follow. Violence is possible whether one believes in an objective morality or a subjective morality—it’s irrelevant to the discussion—no one is arguing otherwise (We can put aside an argument for pacifism for now). The huge, and glaring, difference however, between violence used in such a situation and where it is arbitrary, or as a bully would use it, just to get his way, or because he can, he is more powerful, is that in one case, there is a greater principle or objective referent appealed to, rather, than in the opposing case, the two sides are simply pointing toward their inner personal subjective weather reports that happen to vary at the moment. In this scenario, we have people threatening violence because the other person does not emote or “feel” or think the way the other does. I can’t imagine a more unreliable, unreasonable, irrational, irresponsible, or immoral reason to justify using violence. It is the rational of the bully.”

    Like

  33. Hi Darrell

    I absolutely understand the difference is one of motivation. In the objectivist world, we act because we believe our moral compass is attuned to universal values that in themselves justify the action, in the relativist world, we act in accordance with our personal values or desires. There is no disagreement here.

    What is interesting to me is the claim that one type of motivation is intrinsically unacceptable. How to establish that, I wonder. This is why I mention things such as the tragic shootings in France. To highlight a point we also agree upon, that under either method the consequences can be, for you and I, quite revolting. Given this, we can not argue one method is less acceptable because of the potential outcomes.

    So where does the problem lie? I know you think I'm getting my summaries of your argument wrong, but I'm trying to be as generous as I can be in my interpretation, in order to stop your case collapsing into 'it's just wrong.'

    We understand the unacceptability does not stem from the undesirability of consequences. So, where should we look?

    Often you point out that the motivations are different. But what makes one set of motivations less acceptable? I don't see this at all.

    The key thing in the example of protecting my child is not that I expect the other person should hold the value I do. There is no should involved. Rather, I desire to thwart them in their attempts to express their values, because I wish to see my child kept safe. You think there is something unacceptable about this. but what?

    The same applies to your Corvette example. WOuld I intervene? Yes, I would like to think I would. Because, I desire to live in a world where people are safe form senseless attack, and in order to satisfy such a desire, i would intervene. i also desire to feel good about myself, and hence would wish to be able to add this moment of bravery and moral consistency to my self-narrative.

    I don't think I have a right to intervene in the sense you mean it (like Locke, I don't think of rights as inalienable, but rather as bestowed upon us by comment consent), just a desire to act.

    So, what in all of this is unacceptable?

    Bernard

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  34. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “In the objectivist world, we act because we believe our moral compass is attuned to universal values that in themselves justify the action…”

    This isn't quite right. It is just as likely that we perceive our supposed “moral compass” is in fact broken and sometimes not of much use. It is when we encounter something outside our own wills, values, and desires that we often come to see something new. Therein lies the objectivity.

    “What is interesting to me is the claim that one type of motivation is intrinsically unacceptable. How to establish that, I wonder.”

    It’s been established through a shared and communal understanding of language, definitions, context, and so on. How would you establish, contrary to the mainstream, that it is acceptable? Simply arguing that you also just happen to do the moral and ethical thing (which, ironically, comes from the Judeo-Christian you've grown up in) is not an argument that morality is subjective and doesn't devolve into power. You have yet to make that case.

    “Often you point out that the motivations are different. But what makes one set of motivations less acceptable? I don't see this at all.”

    Because you are only using examples where you are already doing or following what is already considered the moral or ethical thing to do. But you then want to place the action under the heading subjective “preference” or “taste”. That begs the question. And using the word “value” doesn't work, because if we don’t expect others should value it too, it then too becomes just a personal preference. It is unacceptable to use violence if something is just a personal preference, wherein we don’t expect the other person to share our opinion. Logically, in principle, that means that violence is acceptable whether the dispute is protecting your child or protecting your opinion that white wine is best. Your view leaves them on the same plane. You claim they are different, but so far, you have not told us how they are different. Your case breaks down once we apply it to circumstances wherein one desires or values the very opposite of what you do. Further, it means we only need do the moral or ethical thing if we personally desire such, which obviously means it is a matter of feeling or emoting. Are you really going to claim the other person’s “feelings” and “emoting” is somehow wrong or incorrect, while yours will get its way? Again, this all comes down to power then. That is all you are appealing to. That is unacceptable, regardless if all the while you are doing the moral or ethical thing (this is not an argument) to begin with. If you are, great, good for you. But you are arguing a case that we should be able to apply to an entire culture and civilization. That is where it fails.

    Moving on:

    “Finally, it should become clear that if what you value in a moral sense can be the opposite of what someone else values, then the word “valuable” means nothing in a communal sense. It really just means, “What I want or like.” It is reduced then not to what we “ought” to value, or what is valuable and not valuable, but to power alone. Thus, I get to say what is valuable even if that means making a car more valuable than a life. If you use the word “lonely” to mean when you are surrounded by people and happy and I use it in its contextual and understood sense, then we can no longer communicate or understand each other. And if a culture were to accept your line of thought here, with no differentiation between moral categories and personal subjective tastes/preferences/values, then a culture could not communicate or understand each other morally or ethically.”

    Please address the above.

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  35. Hi Darrell

    The point you raise is easily addressed. How can the word value have a communal meaning if it appeals to individual preference? Well, simply because the word valuable then refers to a concept, the concept of the individually precious. The word still has meaning, in exactly the same way that the word 'tasty' is still meaningful, even though different people prefer different tastes.

    Now, how do you define unacceptability? Your previous answer suggests simply by majority fiat. You write:
    “It’s been established through a shared and communal understanding of language, definitions, context, and so on.”
    So, how would I counter this? Simply by noting that majority consensus is itself a subjectivist, rather than objective value. If you mean to say that this approach is subjectively unacceptable, according to the tastes of many, then of course we have no disagreement. A great many people are uncomfortable with a preferential moral system. I'm interested in whether that discomfort is grounded in any sort of argument.

    You try another approach when writing:
    “It is unacceptable to use violence if something is just a personal preference, wherein we don’t expect the other person to share our opinion.”
    This is an assertion, but I'm not sure what it's grounded in (apart form your personal distaste for the idea). You suggest that this is because it puts the preference for wine on the same plane, in other words, it sanctions behaviour you and I would not approve of (using force to assert one's wine tastes) but we've been through this argument before, and shown why it doesn't work.

    You would (rightly) object to me opposing the idea of using objective values to justify protecting a child, on the grounds that it puts it on the same plane as using objective values to shoot a cartoonist. The 'same plane' argument, in other words, works against both objective and preferential models. Both systems, as we agree, can sanction abhorrent behaviour, hence putting it on 'the same plane' as the behaviour we desire.

    So, what is the unique problem the preferentialist model faces, that makes it unacceptable (apart from it being in the minority, historically speaking)?

    Bernard

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  36. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “How can the word value have a communal meaning if it appeals to individual preference? Well, simply because the word valuable then refers to a concept, the concept of the individually precious. The word still has meaning, in exactly the same way that the word 'tasty' is still meaningful, even though different people prefer different tastes.”

    The above doesn't address what I wrote; take what I actually write below and tell us where I am wrong/incorrect:

    “Finally, it should become clear that if what you value in a moral sense can be the opposite of what someone else values, then the word “valuable” means nothing in a communal sense. It really just means, “What I want or like.” It is reduced then not to what we “ought” to value, or what is valuable and not valuable, but to power alone. Thus, I get to say what is valuable even if that means making a car more valuable than a life. If you use the word “lonely” to mean when you are surrounded by people and happy and I use it in its contextual and understood sense, then we can no longer communicate or understand each other. And if a culture were to accept your line of thought here, with no differentiation between moral categories and personal subjective tastes/preferences/values, then a culture could not communicate or understand each other morally or ethically.”

    “So, how would I counter this? Simply by noting that majority consensus is itself a subjectivist, rather than objective value.”

    That just begs the question. You still haven’t told us why the majority consensus should change and view morality the way you suggest. How do you know morality is subjective if the Christian counter-argument is that an objective morality is really just saying, “God exists or look at the life of Jesus.” I thought you were agnostic (including as to the divinity of Christ)? So put your opinion aside, and address the consequences of your opinion, which I say and Nietzsche agreed, all then reduces to power.

    “It is unacceptable to use violence if something is just a personal preference, wherein we don’t expect the other person to share our opinion.”

    Bernard, do you agree with the above statement or not? Do you believe it acceptable to use violence against another person if he doesn't share your personal, subjective, opinion or preference/taste regardless of what the difference may be regarding?
    (Continued)

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  37. Darrell says:

    (Continued)

    “You would (rightly) object to me opposing the idea of using objective values to justify protecting a child, on the grounds that it puts it on the same plane as using objective values to shoot a cartoonist.”

    The above makes no sense to me. The plane we are talking about is the plane of personal subjective preference or opinion/taste being put on the same plane as good or evil. Your view puts them on the same plane, true? It puts the value of the Corvette and the value of a life on the same plane. What is hard about this? Are you telling us that if tomorrow, for whatever reason, you started valuing cars over lives, it becomes fine? Personal preferences, opinions, and subjective tastes, change all the time. How do you know what to value or why under your view? These questions reveal the deep problems with your view and why it is a minority one.

    Whether or not morality is objective or subjective is disputed. The point, which Nietzsche recognized, is that if it is subjective, then all reduces to power, which you tacitly have agreed with (but just throwing out, “you too” which has been addressed). That is why cultures (regardless of what you think is really happening) have sought objective referents to morality and ethics.

    You haven’t given us, beyond you simply not believing in an objective morality, any good reason we should view it otherwise. I have given you several, but the most important one being so that all doesn't reduce to power or will against will, or emotion against emotion. That is the ethics of the animal world. We appeal to concepts and ideas outside our wills, desires, and emotions so that we can be fair, just, and…Moral. “Because I say so or feel this way” has never appealed to most of us, which is all your view seems to contain. Making every man a tyrant is probably not a good idea for culture building. Why do you suppose the consensus view disagrees with you, by the way?

    After you respond, I will reply and then we need to move on. I get the last word on my blog. Sorry, I have to actually point that out—but I feel in your case it must be said—I do have other posts to write and other matters to attend. If you wish to have the last word, you will need to post it on your own blog.

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  38. Hi Darrell

    As always, there are a number of points in play here. Perhaps if we stay with just one, this idea that you have that seeing values in terms of preferences reduces all preferences to the same level.

    One needs to be careful at this point to define what one means by the 'same level'. In some sense this is absolutely true, of course. The subjectivists is suggesting all moral judgements are expressions of preference. And I'm fine with this. I see no reason why we should immediately judge this is unacceptable.

    Specifically, I don't agree with the statement you offer, that it isn't okay to use violence to express a personal preference, and I've explained why. I have a personal preference to see my children unharmed, and would, in some circumstances, use violence to protect them. It is quite acceptable, to me, to do this. It fits with my deeper desires and need for moral consistency.

    Now, for some reason, as yet ungiven, you do not find this quite unacceptable. This has something to do with your feeling that if this was acceptable, then it must also be acceptable to me to use violence to assert other preferences. Yet, it simply isn't. I don't find it personally acceptable to interfere with people's lives unless the consequences of their actions impact significantly upon me. The same more that underpins most society's views of rights and obligations. So, in an important sense, these are not on the same plane.

    The only way we get them on the same plane is to use the phrase so broadly, that it becomes equally problematic for the objectivist, who puts suicide bombers 'on the same plane' as charity workers (each doing that which they believe is right).

    So, does the subjectivist view reduce only to power? No, it reduces to personal desires, which in turn reduce to biology and personal/cultural history. It reduces to social contracts, it reduces to empathy it reduces to our yearning to be loved etc etc. In short, it reduces to our essential humanity. Power is always in play, of course, as our rules are negotiated within and between societies, but this is equally true of objectivist systems.

    The problem here is that your distaste for a preferential system of ethics is such that you assume it must just be wrong, although there is no way of establishing this. This is part of the broader problem that whatever we choose to believe is objectively true, we can never establish this to the satisfaction of those with a different value system.
    In other words, here is a perfect example of the way moral reasoning which we are both employing) is absolutely useless at producing convergence. The only way you can conclude my system is unacceptable is to assume your moral intuition is more in tune with the universe than mine.

    Bernard

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  39. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “Now, for some reason, as yet ungiven, you do not find this quite unacceptable. This has something to do with your feeling that if this was acceptable, then it must also be acceptable to me to use violence to assert other preferences. Yet, it simply isn't.”

    “…it simply isn’t.” That is not much of a reason. And, again, I've given you many reasons—most of which you continue to ignore. Why is it okay to use violence when some of your personal preferences are not the same as others, but not in other cases? What is the criteria? If there isn't an objective criteria, then the principle remains the same whether a car is preferred or a child.

    “I don't find it personally acceptable to interfere with people's lives unless the consequences of their actions impact significantly upon me.”

    Again, this is irrelevant. We are not talking about you personally, but what an entire culture could adopt. Further, are you suggesting that the man and his corvette be left alone simply because the consequences of his actions don’t significantly impact you? This is why your view doesn't work.

    “No, it reduces to personal desires, which in turn reduce to biology and personal/cultural history. It reduces to social contracts, it reduces to empathy it reduces to our yearning to be loved etc etc. In short, it reduces to our essential humanity.”

    Right, but you have reduced all this to one person’s will or emotions/desires over the other, unless you are offering something like empathy and love (common humanity) as objective concepts that all should value. If so, then you would be asserting an objective referent. But I doubt this is what you are doing so the problem remains.

    “Power is always in play, of course, as our rules are negotiated within and between societies, but this is equally true of objectivist systems.”

    But the justifications are different and what each appeals to is different. You keep forgetting they are different in that regard and the difference is crucial.

    “The problem here is that your distaste for a preferential system of ethics is such that you assume it must just be wrong, although there is no way of establishing this.”

    You have no way of establishing your view either. My taste or distaste has nothing to do with it—no one cares. The issue is one reduces to power, the other allows for a third party (we know you think it imagined or created by us subjectively, but that is another issue) to mediate. Thus, if one side loses, he thinks it was at least a fair process and not a matter of power, or wealth, or connections. This is what is meant by the rule of law. Whether you think the law always subjectively created, or whether it is our attempt to codify objective moral morality, is beside the point. We recognize the difference. If you would allow yourself just one second of looking at this from the other person’s perspective (suspend your firm beliefs for a second!), you would see there is a big difference here in the justification for violence or power.

    I am able to imagine a world without God and for there to be only personal desires, will, and preferences. And yes, I would then see that all our laws, all our customs, everything, was just the collective subjective will writ large. And I can logically make the connection then that if the collective will is the Nazi or Taliban, or whether it is the US, it is finally about power then. That is simply logic. But if I imagine the other world, the position I am taking, then can see that it all doesn't reduce to power.

    No one is asking you to change your mind; the point is you should be able to see the difference between the two. Nietzsche did.

    I guess you are not going to address my assertions regarding the word lonely and valuable or that objective morality is intrinsic to God’s existence and the life of Jesus. Very well.

    Cheers.

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  40. Hi Darrell

    I absolutely agree that if we had some form of third party mediation, then there would be a crucial difference between the two systems. In other words, if we had some reliable way of knowing which Gods did or didn't count in the ordering of the moral universe, and how to reliably decipher their communications with us, then we would have a significant difference.

    So, it all comes down to reliability. How could the human mind reliably know God's wishes? Should we all be going vegan, sacrificing our first born, pursuing personal wealth, assassinating cartoonists, beating homosexuals or withdrawing from society for a life of meditation? Which God, and which interpretation of this God, are we to back? If we knew that, then clearly a subjective system of morality would be unacceptable, as it would at times go against the wishes of the universe.

    However, all the evidence seems to suggest that we are endlessly creative in our ruminations on the divine. Hence, both systems are ultimately relativistic, relying as they do upon the narrative from which they are drawn to bring about their personal sense of 'right' and 'wrong'. If we had certainty about God and His nature, then this would be a way of bypassing the power factor, but you are as dismissive of fundamentalists as I am.

    And as such, all we are left with is a morally relative world, I am afraid, although thankfully there is sufficient commonality in our histories and biologies for societies to stitch together moments of tenderness, of discovery, of art or community. Nietzsche was congenitally grumpy about his fellow humans, and so tended to miss the beauty all around. Perhaps if he'd been able to find love somewhere along the way, he would have seen it differently.

    Bernard

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  41. Darrell says:

    Hi Bernard,

    “I absolutely agree that if we had some form of third party mediation, then there would be a crucial difference between the two systems.”

    Well, that is all we've been asking. If you go back and read your previous comments and responses, you kept claiming there was no difference.

    “However, all the evidence seems to suggest that we are endlessly creative in our ruminations on the divine.”

    No, your interpretation of the evidence may suggest such things to you; however, it hasn't for the great majority of people now and over time. You might want to reflect upon that.

    “And as such, all we are left with is a morally relative world, I am afraid…”

    Yes, according to you, Nietzsche, other atheists, and a minority of people now and historically. We disagree.

    “Nietzsche was congenitally grumpy about his fellow humans, and so tended to miss the beauty all around. Perhaps if he'd been able to find love somewhere along the way, he would have seen it differently.”

    Well, according to the view you just gave us, perhaps he did see the beauty and you missed it. You have no way of knowing. Perhaps he did find love and you haven’t. Again, for you, there is no way to know.

    We need to leave it there. As always, a very interesting discussion. Thanks.

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  42. Hi Darrell

    Well, again I've failed to make my point at all clear for you. Never mind. As always, thanks for engaging.

    Bernard

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  43. Darrell says:

    Bernard,

    If this is any consolation, the sentiment is mutual, but at least we are conversing. That is always a plus.

    Cheers.

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